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FtM-Not just Co-opting Lesbian Spaces but Lesbian Identity
This tumblr account was sent to me the other night, featuring an "adorable lesbian couple", one of which claims to be an ftM who still identifies as "lesbian".
I'm not sure which is the ftM as clearly neither appear to be taking testosterone yet, but regardless, relinquishing female for male excludes continuing to claim lesbian.
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The one on the left appears to have a lot of arm hair, so maybe she is taking T.
ReplyDeleteyeah it looks like the girl on the left is fronting a little bit and prehaps medicated
ReplyDeleteWell, from my point of view, I'm in two minds.
ReplyDeleteStrictly speaking, if I take one criteria for being lesbian is being a biological females (as opposed to female gender, or anyone who identifies as female), then a transwoman can't be a lesbian, because they're biologically male. Nor do they have the background of socialization that is part of our common identity as women in this society.
So, in that sense, a transman is still biologically female, hence passes the first test. They have presumably also been socialised as female as well.
The determining factor for me is if they don't 'identify as' female, or a woman, but 'identify' as male. Just as a male who was male (rather than identifying as male) would also be excluded?
But a transman who later came to regret their transition, or who detransitioned, hence stopped identifying as male, should be welcomed into lesbian spaces.
To boil all this down, whilst not accepting the validity of 'identifying as' as a meaningingful construct, I'm left with:
Is biologically female. You can't alter this no matter how much surgery or hormones or whatever.
Accepting yourself as female and as a woman (or at least not REJECTING).
The point here is that I'm not trying to rest my argument on the question of whether the female in question 'identifies' as a woman, or 'identifies' as a man. I don't 'identify' as a woman, I AM a woman and accept that. Rejecting the fact that you're a woman (even if you accept that you're female) makes sense to me as a criteria, without accepting the validity of 'identifying' as a man. It's not that she IS a man, but that she WANTS to be one (by identifying as one......).
So, it's NOT about bodies as such -- a former transman who detransitioned mentally might have issues as regards what had been done to their bodies by surgery and hormones, but that alone shouldn't exclude them from lesbian spaces, because they still are female and always were, and are no longer rejecting their femaleness or their womanhood.
From the tumblr account:
ReplyDelete"This is me and my boifriend (ftm). He still identifies as a lesbian."
Makes SENSE I guess from the trans point of view, where you ARE what you identify as. Despite the seeming contradictions.
But if you think it's okay for an ftm to 'identify as' a lesbian, then logicaly what's to stop a biological male who doesn't 'identify' as female, also 'identifying' as a lesbian?
Hence lesbian space would just become -- anyone can come in provided they 'identify' as lesbians, female sex and female pronouns or even 'identifying' as a woman would become optional extras...........
Logical conclusion of the trans ideology. Men can be lesbians too, and still be men..........Whoopee!
He's not "opting" into anyone's space he doesn't belong. Gender has nothing to do with sexuality. Lesbians are homoSEXuals; homosexuals are attracted to the same SEX, not gender. He's acknowledging his body for what it is: female. It's very common for transmen who are only attracted to women to openly state that they are homosexuals. It isn't like they think that they suddenly are the male sex just because they legally are considered the male sex; they know they're not. The point of *legally* changing your sex is mostly for I.D. purposes. For example: it's pretty hard to get past a bouncer at a club if your I.D. still says F but you're got a full grown beard and a deep voice. I'm sorry, I'm ranting, but my point is, transmen know their bodies are female, as does this gentleman I'm sure, so he openly accepts that that would make him a lesbian for liking other people of the same anatomy as his.
ReplyDeleteLesbian men exist. Even ones that are not trans. You'd be amazed at what 5 seconds of google can teach you. Seriously.
ReplyDeletelesbian men do not exist in the real world dear only in the 'i'm anything i say i am' queertheory world
ReplyDelete"but my point is, transmen know their bodies are female, as does this gentleman I'm sure, so he openly accepts that that would make him a lesbian for liking other people of the same anatomy as his."
ReplyDeleteExcept you can also find many trans sites where they define lesbian etc in terms of female GENDERED persons attracted to persons of the same GENDER. To give an example most people have heard of, when Chaz Bono transitioned, she proudly declared she wasn't a lesbian any more but involved in a heterosexual relationship (which had always been emotionally heterosexual, WTF?)
"It's very common for transmen who are only attracted to women to openly state that they are homosexuals."
And it's also very common for transmen attracted to men to then state that they are also homosexual, but gay.
"homosexuals are attracted to the same SEX, not gender." Sorry, you need to think a little more than that.
If a female identifies as a man, and has top surgery and then bottom surgery, in what way is a woman who is then attracted to her pseudo-male genitalia being attracted to the female sex?
You have to think about this a little harder -- being homoSEXUAL isn't -- I'm attracted to your lovely XX chromosomes, and mine are XX too, how nice we're both LESBIANS, but a little more complicated.
So, the fact that you're XX means that you have female genitalia (I prefer innies to outies), AND that you were probably socialised as a female (hence we have the commonality of experience that goes with being members of the sex class women in this patriarchal society), and hopefully that you're also not rejecting your female body.
A M2T doesn't count as a lesbian, not just cos they're XY (O lookie, I can see your chromosomes, yuck, not the sort I like!), but because they were born male with all the male socialisation that goes with that. Surgucally constructed second arseholes aren't vaginas, so the genitalia are all wrong. So frankly, nothing there gets him anywhere near being a lesbian..............
As regards this pair -- she may be female, but she doesn't consider herself a woman, hence no dice. Whatever bits and bobs she has or doesn't have, and whatever effects T has had.
Plus if you REALLY hold this point of view, are you really going to tell all the transmen who consider themselves straight men that they're not really heterosexual? Good luck with that one!
In transland, we have biological sex, so it seems (some pay it more attention that others), and then we have magic internal gender, and then we have what people identify as -- which leads to transmen who like women claiming they're straight men, and transmen who like women claiming they're lesbians, and god knows what else............
Whereas I stick to the slightly more tangible criteria of sex, socialisation, and whether or not you are able to accept the physical reality of your own body.........
Does show nicely though how the trans ideology just dissolves into an amorphous mess..............
What qualifies a man as a 'lesbian?'
ReplyDelete"Why have the need to put youself in a box? I feel like no matter what our differences what our openions are...we should love each other :)"
ReplyDeleteExcept I DON'T love men who built the box labelled 'woman' and put us all in it. You can't get out of the box by pretending it doesn't exist!
Plus I don't love the trans ideology that tries to make the box even more secure, however nice they may be on an individual basis.
oy vey
ReplyDeletetransism has become such a bizarre combination of the most rigid right-wing gender ideology and the most flaky ultra-liberal 'anything goes' ideology
Seems labeling oneself a 'proud FTM teenager' is an extreme example of putting oneself into a very specific box...
ReplyDelete"Why have the need to put youself in a box?"
ReplyDeleteReal distinctions exist, and they make a difference to life. We have human beings who can get pregnant and give birth, and human beings who can't, but who are also needed at some stage in that process.........
The problem is when those basic facts of sex and biology gave someone the good idea of taking ALL those human beings who they assumed had wombs, putting them in a box, and telling everyone else they:
had no souls
were the cause of original sin
weren't as strong/brave/clever/dependable as other human beings
didn't deserve the vote, or to own their own property, or to be educated, and so on and so on...........
Should like pink, be more intuitive, couldn't read maps, had different brains.................
and so on. I didn't invent the box, just know that you can't get out of it by WISHING it didn't exist (I'm not in the box, I IDENTIFY as a non-box-sitter, I REALLY, really do......).
What box is more confining than the Transsexual box?
ReplyDeleteTheres something to be said for TS who consider themselves closer to '3rd sex' post-op: if they understand this excludes them from sexually dimorphic language like straight/gay man/woman.
ReplyDeleteClaiming 'FtM' AND lesbian is queer speak. I have a problem with queer speak, not just for being meaningless guff, but because its succeeded in whitewashing real discrimination away. If everyone can be a lesbian, homophobia doesn't exist, right? Cool! problem solved. If anyone can be a woman, sexism doesnt exist! Dave, CEO of Globocorp identifies as a Lesbian Woman, look girls, the glass ceiling has been smashed, now shut up moaning.
Take enough T to totally pass as straight with your g/f? you'll hand in your L card graciously if you give a damn about lesbians.
BadDyke you want to tear down the boxes yet make women spaces. You aren't even making sense.
ReplyDelete"BadDyke you want to tear down the boxes yet make women spaces. You aren't even making sense."
ReplyDeletewomen are currently treated differently to men in our society, hence acknowledging that and having women only spaces is perfectly legitimate. You aren't even trying now, just the tired ole line from the men about trying to get into women-only groups cos its discriminating. Heard it all twenty years ago............
"you aren't even trying now." That's got to be at least the fifth time you've said this, and I'm starting to think it's just something for you to say when you don't know what else to say. My argument makes perfect sense. You want to tear down the boxs? Great. Do it. Creating more of them isn't "fixing the problem." Sure it's "perfectly legitimate," but not if you're whole point is to tear them down in the first place. That's like saying "I want to stop people from having the right to bear arms...but since everyone else has guns, I'll own a few too until they make it illegal. Maybe instead of telling me I'm not trying, you should stop acting like no one has logic but you.
ReplyDeleteyour* whole argument.
ReplyDelete"Hence lesbian space would just become -- anyone can come in provided they 'identify' as lesbians, female sex and female pronouns or even 'identifying' as a woman would become optional extras..........."
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that it's mostly women spaces who get destroyed or overrun by people who identify as [insert fantasy identity]?? That's just crazy. I've never heard such thing about gay male spaces (does anyone has examples?). But perhaps these are the next target.
If you make a blog dedicated to lesbians and the people on it discuss people talk badly of people who are not lesbians, the people you are talking about aren't just going to sit there are be nice just because "it wasn't meant for them." This is how the world works. You talk about people, they defend themselves.
ReplyDeletemy ftm boyfriend thinks he should be allowed into lesbian spaces as well. i've been trying to tell him that a biological male wouldn't be, so why should he be? kinda feel like it's about wanting the perks of being both male and female, like having both male privilege AND being able to get into lesbian spaces. not okay.
ReplyDeleteWell if most people would consider him a lesbian, as he has a vagina, he SHOULD be allowed into those spaces. If people are going to group you as something, you should be allowed to see what they're grouping you into.
ReplyDeleteWhy have a one size fits all policy? Every different space could have a different policy, depending on what the organizers want. The most important thing is to be clear in advance, and enforce it.
ReplyDeleteFor instance: Saturday night's dance is for everyone who identifies as female, and their dates who identify as either female or genderqueer. Sunday brunch is for women born women only. Bring a photo id. Trespassers will be evicted and prosecuted. Simple, no?
"Well if most people would consider him a lesbian, as he has a vagina, he SHOULD be allowed into those spaces. If people are going to group you as something, you should be allowed to see what they're grouping you into."
ReplyDeleteSorry, but does this last line mean that IF you're being excluded, you should be allowed in anyway?
But it REALLY isn't about lesbians policing door policy, or throwing out anyone they consider too male-identified, that isn't the point.
The real point is about the ability of a group to define THEMSELVES, and that includes sometimes agreeing amongst themselves that others ARE NOT INCLUDED (even if they may want to be).
Anyone can define themselves as whatever they want, it's this expectation that others are then expected to AGREE with that designation.
Under their picture, it says "This is me and my boifriend (ftm). He still identifies as a lesbian. I still identify as a me."
ReplyDeleteHere's my take on this: since there is an incredible amount of peer pressure lately for young dykes to "transition", perhaps this young woman really does want to be Lesbian, and sees herself that way, but her peers are tagging her as FTM, and she's going along with it, or at least not telling them they're wrong, in order to be cool or fit in. And in some communities, they're even referring to butches as "he" lately, and talking about being "masculine of center" and that whole load of crap. Anyway, what these young women really need to hear is that it is awesome to be Lesbian, and you don't have to go along with the crowd telling your that you have to be trans!
the harsh, cold fact of life is that your genitals DO define you. period.
ReplyDeletewhat's unfair is that persons with vaginas have been discriminated for that reason alone.
transsexuals refuse to challenge the societies that enforce that bias and co-opt the vagina hatred by looking like men.
therefore, they are cowards and traitors. to themselves, and other women/girls.
you ARE your genitals, period. like it or not. there is no grey area about gender, it is what it is.
all of this babbling on about 'gender constructs' and 'male brains' and such is a huge round about way of submitting to woman hatred.
just stop it already.
" I have never seen any transman pressure a lesbian into being an ftm."
ReplyDeleteThere is an utube video about that topic:
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/ftm-detransitioner-the-subcultural-pressure-on-young-women-to-medically-“transition”/
It's not that others pressure these young women. They kind of pressure themselves. At least that's the way how I understood the video.
You continuously call transmen lesbians, yet when one of them says they are one, you flip shit on him. Wow. You all need to get lives.
ReplyDelete"You continuously call transmen lesbians, yet when one of them says they are one, you flip shit on him."
ReplyDeleteTo be man and lesbian at the same time doesn't make any sense. What kind of logic is that?
Exactly what I just said. All anyone on this blog does is call them lesbians, yet when one says they are one, they get scrutinized. That's incredibly hypocritical.
ReplyDelete" yet when one says they are one, they get scrutinized. That's incredibly hypocritical"
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about this. I was talking about how someone can identify as a man and at the same time claim to be a lesbian. That's some warped logic.
women are currently treated differently to men in our society, hence acknowledging that and having women only spaces is perfectly legitimate. You aren't even trying now, just the tired ole line from the men about trying to get into women-only groups cos its discriminating. Heard it all twenty years ago............
ReplyDelete***
BadDyke you are actually a part of the problem and those who think like you. Men have put women in boxes and excluded them from spaces for years. By you putting people who are different than you in boxes you are doing the very thing you loathe in men.
@9:55, no it really isn't. what you identify as is a gender, not a sex. SEXual orientation is based on sex. Lesbians are people of the female SEX who like other people of the female SEX. We're not talking romanticism, we're talking sexual orientation.
ReplyDelete"no it really isn't. what you identify as is a gender, not a sex."
ReplyDeleteBeing male/female is a biological state not an feeling someone has.
"We're not talking romanticism, we're talking sexual orientation."
ReplyDeleteIn trans land gender is much more important than sex. 'Cause of that lesbians have to deal with people like this:
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/whats-up-with-toronto-sherbourne-health-center-threatening-lesbians/
No it isn't.
ReplyDelete"In trans land gender is much more important than sex"
ReplyDeleteI think this is the key point, since the whole point of trans is that you CAN transition, and become the other sex by surgery. Gender can't be changed (it's in your head), and sex can be.
Okay, so we keep saying that a transman is STILL female and still a lesbian, however hard they may identify as male and say they're a man and heterosexual.
If they identify as a man AND a lesbian, then lesbians need to defend lesbian spaces against that, inasmuch as if that is okay, then so is a bio man identifying as a lesbian.
So, if a female in a lesbian space wants to be treated as a lesbian, then she ought to get called out on using male pronouns. If the transmen don't like that (as pronouns do seem to be so important), then they shouldn't make such a fuss about being called a lesbian -- the rest of us aren't obliged to agree with whatever someone identifies as. It may be seen as disrespectful to not agree, but then they are showing no respect to the lesbians in that space.
Lesbian = female SEX = female pronouns = girlfriend and not boyfriend, she and not he. Which shows some respect for all those lesbians who DO GET 'mis-pronouned' as male and resist that, who demand to be recognised as WOMEN who love WOMEN.
But I think it is much simpler than this --once you believe the whole 'identify as' crap, then being a man and a lesbian makes as much sense as anything else (cos it's all nonsensical anyway!). Plus someone who wants to have their cake and eat it == still have access to the lesbian-only spaces where they feel safe, AND pester the rest of us about using male pronouns/male names and 'respecting' their identity as a man.
Some things are just mutually exclusive, and 'he' and 'lesbian' are one good example.
And the best we have in reply is -- how DARE you discriminate against men by not letting them into women-only spaces, which is the same tired ole argument that feminists have been hearing from men for the last forty years. You can't organise against oppression if you have to let the oppressors into every meeting and every space, we figured that one out years ago.
BadDyke why don't you take a little bit and actually learn about the transgender community before making assumptions about their beliefs. Basically all of what you said is inaccurate and/or matches a small percentage of the communities beliefs/lives.
ReplyDeleteI transitioned 15 years ago and have met MANY FTMs and have never known one that considers themselves lesbian. I DO care about lesbians and would never co-opt the identity. A lot of this blog makes sense in regards to women's spaces and equality - what brings it's reputability into question are the blanket generalizations toward the trans community. All lesbians don't wear flannel, right?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but they make a cute couple, I guess? They both have nice smiles!!
ReplyDeletelet's see how long the 'girl' stays with the 'boy!'
ReplyDeleteThis blog has so much narcissistic behavior and hypocrisy, it's hilarious. And you wonder why no one takes you all seriously.
ReplyDelete"This blog has so much narcissistic behavior and hypocrisy, it's hilarious. And you wonder why no one takes you all seriously."
ReplyDeleteTroll! I'll bet you didn't even read this blog.
Not a troll, and yes, I do read this blog. My opinion stands the same. Nice try.
ReplyDelete"why don't you take a little bit and actually learn about the transgender community before making assumptions about their beliefs. Basically all of what you said is inaccurate and/or matches a small percentage of the communities beliefs/lives."
ReplyDeleteYou miss the point -- it isn't about doing some sort of grand statistical survey of all transpeople and their beliefs. Nor is your assumption correct that people on here DON'T take time to learn about the trans community. We do. What we're responding to it the trans ideology as you can find on the web, or repeated many times on various youtube videos etc.
It's like someone complaining, say, about someone critical of christianity because they have responded to public statements by churches as to WHAT they believe, rather than bothering to question every christian they may come across.
SO, the christian churhces in general have a problem with gay marriage, and quite publically say WHY that is. That doesn't differ, say, even if a sample of christians you may come across might add that actually they personally don't believe that. If the trans community DOESN'T agree with the trans ideology as stated in many places, then that's their problem, not mine. Just as it is the responsibility of individual church members to complain about the official church line if they don't agree -- but that doesn't invalidate any criticism of that official line.
You know, the thing here is, people judge others for a multitude of reasons. Some have been raised in critical or demanding families and learned to judge others as a normal way of relating. Some people judge others as a projection of their own self-judgments; they see in others what they don't like in themselves - which is what I think is happening here. Some people have low self-esteem and have a negative perspective about many things in life. So therefore, some of these people use arrogance and belittling of others as a way to temporarily feel better or more important themselves. The external is a pretty good indicator of the internal. How we interact with others - regardless of our differences, says a lot about who we really are. So this anger and bitterness directed at the trans community is really a reflection of people not all that happy in their own lives for whatever reason. And this isn't a one sided coin... all those members of the trans community threatening dirt, and saying horrible things to her - the above applies to you too. I don't agree with dirt or her fan club one bit... do I hate and attack her/them? No, not at all... I don't need to. I think she's got the right to her blog and her opinions. But the difference in me and those transmen attacking her is that I am happy with who I am... my identity isn't hanging on what she thinks of me. Her opinion of me has no impact on my life. Stop all threats because you only make yourself look bad and make yourself a great target for ridicule.
ReplyDeleteJust because I disagree with the Transist ideology it sure doesn't make me a member of Dirt's 'fan club!'
ReplyDeleteNor do I have low self-esteem
Also, I've never seen anything EVER more narcissistic or hypocritical than Transism
I imagine your identity is hanging on what EVERYBODY thinks of you, no?
ReplyDeleteThere would be no transsexualism without constant concern about one's projected image.
elizabeth, the fact that you just said that is narcissistic. I doubt you have ever experienced what life is like as a transgender person, yet you are automatically assuming that they are full of themselves. Transgender people face a huge amount of discrimination. You think they just decided to up and CHOOSE to make their lives harder and put themselves in a great deal more danger? Hardly.
ReplyDelete10:03, this is false. There are places in the world where women hold more power in society. There are also places in the world where both sexes are treated equally. Transgender people still exist in both of those types of places. It has nothing to do with people trying to gain the male privilege that America gives to everyone with a penis.
Anon 10:18 - exactly, and thank you. Their theories just don't hold water. I transitioned for ME. I like what I see when I look in the mirror, PERIOD. All the assumptions I see fly around here about how we just want male privilege and for others to see us as bio males, etc etc. Wrong. At least for me. If that were the case, I wouldn't be out 100%. By being out, I subject myself to the type of behavior displayed on this blog. I am simply exercising my right to live life on my terms and how I see fit. I don't let the witch hunt piss me off like some people do... that would be giving people who don't even know me FAR too much power in my life. I truly feel bad that dirt has had people threaten her - no one deserves that for simply speaking their minds. It's her blog and she has the right. It just doesn't MAKE her right.
ReplyDelete" I like what I see when I look in the mirror, PERIOD."
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that's the very definition of narcissism.
e, that is not narcissism. That isn't even close to narcissism, actually. All it is is liking yourself. Everyone should be entitled to that. Heck, even Dirt can agree on that one, as that's what she sets out to show people on a weekly basis on this blog. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with being able to finally look in the mirror and be happy with what you see.
ReplyDelete"There are places in the world where women hold more power in society. There are also places in the world where both sexes are treated equally"
ReplyDeletePlease cite specific countries/regions. Im not just calling bs, genuinely interested.
There are bio men who identify as lesbians. Google it.
ReplyDelete"You know, the thing here is, people judge others for a multitude of reasons."
ReplyDeleteThe point though, is that what is going on is judging IDEOLOGIES (i.e., what is behind why people do what they do, or want what they want, or the explcitly stated ideology of the trans 'movement'.
Except (to make it easier to object to this analysis), it gets seen as a PERSONAL attack on every transperson. This isn't the case.
"I transitioned for ME. I like what I see when I look in the mirror...."
A common fantasy, that what you prefer to see when you like in the mirror has nothing to do with society around you. So, questioning this can be seen as stopping someone doing what they want, when what is actually going on is trying to probe WHY they want what they want. Of course, the person who just wants whatever they want isn't necessarily interested in any of that, and may find any analysis rather uncomfortable (i.e., you want, in many senses, not what you really want, but what society has indoctrinated you to want).
"All it is is liking yourself. Everyone should be entitled to that." Except that is FAR FROm simple! Because society does lots of things to us that help determine whether we 'like' ourselves or not. No 'ALL' about it.
"There are also places in the world where both sexes are treated equally. Transgender people still exist in both of those types of places. It has nothing to do with people trying to gain the male privilege that America gives to everyone with a penis." The conclusion does not follow. Even if we accept that such magical places exist, and there still are transpeople there, then it doesn't follow that in areas where sexism is rampant, that that sexism doesn't contribute to (some) people thinking they are trans to escape that sexism (as opposed to the 'real' trans people living in the mystical land free from sexism).
Like saying that since SOME people indulge in homosexual acts within prison (because nothing is available), that people born homosexual don't exist (actually, I'd debate the last point anyway, but you get the analogy). A single action (i.e. homosexual acts), can have many different reasons behind it. So can the desire to transition, that is hardly a controversial statement in any other context. It only becomes controversial in trans land, since if your belief system is based on believing whatever anyone says about their magic inner innate gender voice, then you CAN'T criticise or analyse that without admitting that some peoples inner voices are better than others, or that some people may be deluded into thinking they have that inner voice when they don't, or that actually, the whole premise about 'innate gender' is flaky as hell................
"I'm pretty sure that's the very definition of narcissism" Well, you have to add-in Narcissus and his degree of self-absorption with his own reflection, but then wanting SURGERY to change what you see in the mirror does indicate a certain amount of absorption with your appearance, sufficient to label it narcissism.
Of course, and not asking the question, WHY do you care so much what you see in the mirror?
"By being out, I subject myself to the type of behavior displayed on this blog."
ReplyDeleteWhat, people criticsing your belief system? Welcome to the real world, happens to the rest of us all the damn time! Including on here, where we have someone claiming that
Jeez, it's like christians getting all UPSET whenever someone reminds them that atheists exist -- although in that case, many atheists might actually think they're pretty dumb for believing in god. Whereas in this case, the trans ideology is just what most of society believes about gender and gender roles anyway, just with the 'innate gender' twist added.
"So this anger and bitterness directed at the trans community is really a reflection of people not all that happy in their own lives for whatever reason."
O save us from the naive pop-psychology PLEASE! Anger at the trans IDEOLOGY, and if I'm not happy in my life, it's because of the sexism of society (which the trans ideology feeds).
Seems all the old chestnuts are coming out on this thread, shall I start up my transtropes bingo? Plus add in the feminism is crap because.... bingo for good measure?
There are bio men who identify as lesbians. Google it.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are many stupid people in this world claiming and doing stupid things.
And didn't Narcissus fall in love with his own reflection? I think e's assessment is quite accurate.
"And didn't Narcissus fall in love with his own reflection?"
ReplyDeleteI think the point was he became so OBSESSED with his own reflection, that he couldn't tear himself away from contemplating it, to his own detriment (he died). Parallels with trans and surgery obvious I think..........
You are not your genitals; your genitals are the result of a chromosome pair which denotes you as belonging to a certain group/class of people, namely, men, or women.
ReplyDeleteChanging the genitals, does not make that different, because these are just the consequence of your specific chromosome pair.
"I AM my genitals? My genitals define me?"
ReplyDeleteThe trans crowd thinks they do, else why have your genitals and secondary sexual characteristics changed by hormones/surgery? They say they HAVE to in order to feel comfortable.
Whereas the rest of us, we've got what we've got, that's just the luck of the draw!
But for patriarchal society, YES, what genitals you've got (i.e. what sex you probably are) DO define you, that's the whole problem.
"it isn't the fact that you aren't ok with the trans community... it isn't even that you're critical of it - but when questions are asked of a trans person on this blog, and anyone tries to explain their path, they get jumped on and ridiculed further."
ReplyDeleteI'm NOT okay with the trans ideology - the trans community and individual trans people are a different matter.
Why ridicule? All we are saying, basically, is that what WE think is going on as regards transpeople and gender isn't necessarily going to agree with the narrative that a trans person constructs for themselves. That is going to be very different, else they wouldn't be caling themselves trans.
Asking questions and pointing out that someone HASN'T been questioning as regards their own beliefs as regards sex and gender, or pointing out that others DISAGREE with their beliefs, isn't jumping on people.
Again, it's like christians getting alkl UPSET because atheists have the gall to question their insistence that god exists...............They would tell you WHY they think/know that he does, an atheist would persist in saying that they are wrong/mistaken/deluded/misled/indoctrinated as regards that belief.
If they feel they are being ridiculed because someone dares to question their beliefs, that is their problem. The rest of us are perhaps a bit more used to people questioning.
Plus last time I looked the whole point of this blog was for women to discuss gender and how gender adversely effects us. If you don't agree with the main premise, why come here?
@the female calling herself "Mike",
ReplyDeleteThis blog IS for women to discuss misogyny in all its forms. And you ARE in some SERIOUS throws of misogyny, starting with calling yourself "mike". If you are not proud of being female or not struggling with trying to be proud of being female, this WOMENS space is clearly not for you.
dirt
Dirt, if you think everyone should be equals, then every name should be unisex. So the name Mike really shouldn't be seen as misogynistic. It's just a name.
ReplyDelete@Kristen, the misogyny lies in WHY she CHOSE the name. I think its safe to assume her parent had provided one for her when she was born.
ReplyDeletedirt
So? People change their names all the time. That's not misogynistic. Things don't have meaning unless you give them one.
ReplyDelete"Things don't have meaning unless you give them one."
ReplyDeleteExcept using a gendered name (such as Mike) DOES have meaning in our society, whether you personally agree to give it one or not. So some things HAVE a meaning, whether you agree with that meaning or not.
This feeling that things are somehow inherently meaningless unless you choose to endow them with meaning, whilst ignoring the meaning they have in society already, is kind of par for the course with the trans crowd. PERSONAL meanings as regards transition seem to be seen as THE meaning, rather than investigating the meaning in wider society or amongst trans people as a whole. It kind of assumes that YOUR stated meaning of a thing IS the only or real meaning, and ignores the fact that there can be deeper, unconscious meanings, or wider meanings.
So, 'identifying' as a man may have meaning for you, but can be seen as meaningless by others -- you can't force everyone else to accept your meaning our of politeness, or 'respect', or by playing the victim card.
No, it's kind of par to not being bumhurt about everything that exists in the world.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that the names of the commenters don't matter as long as they are not hurting or insulting to people. The comments are more important than the names of the commenters. Just look at my nickname.
ReplyDelete"but you cannot STAND to see a decent, constructive post from any member of the trans community."
ReplyDeleteBut that's exactly the same thing which happens on some trans blogs.
Here's my thoughts/opinions. I think most trans guys want to be seen as a male so if they were to identify as a lesbian, then that would deminish the authenticity of their maleness. I think most ftm want to be viewed as with straight guys or gay males. I know of a trans woman that identifies as female and as a lesbian. If she liked guys, it would make her gay it would make her straight. There are certain things that change and are a part of transition just be default...,if don't believe just because you are born with a certain body part of you are with a person with the same body part the. You are gay/lesbian. I think how you are in your mind makes you that way or not. Trans men:women are really men/women in their minds, Their sexual identity will either match that of their straight selves or their gay selves. Just my opinion though.
ReplyDelete