Death to Female Id'd Butch Women

Seems a misogynist linked the dirtster's blog to a BF post and oh gosh we cant have femmes and butches reading dirt, they may get "ideas"! Here's the link that was deleted.

I'll say straight away, NO there is NO room for misogyny. If you were born female and pathologically hate yourself as a female to the point of no longer address yourself or have others address you as the woman you are, YOU MY DEAR ARE A FUCKING MISOGYNIST!

And I'm fucking crying over here right now, where did I put my tiny violin, because it is such a "struggle" to be an ftM woman or a "male ID'd" woman. Choosing to abandon womanship is a choice those women make. It is a clear identification with their victimizers. As long as patriarchal regimes continue to flourish and reign supreme it is a struggle for EVERY woman, no matter the race, creed, class or sexuality. Choosing to sail amid torrents of rough waters is the real fucking struggle!

I'll feel sorry for these women when they buck the fuck up and begin acting like the women they were born rather than they crybabies they've clearly become!


Dirt's Youtube
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Feminism of Choice

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These posts pretty much speak for themselves. All too sadly they're speaking behind closed doors where no one can hear. Only doctors who are more concerned with the all mighty dolla than actually treating these women with their various mental illnesses.

These arent posts that are out of the ordinary by any means, in fact ftM communities are over flowing with such posts. Overflowing with young women who cannot and do not want to exist as women in a sex obsessed, sexist, female objectified society!

A society that drifts further and further adrift away from a feminism that fought for equality for women, a feminism that fought to instill pride in women, a feminism that fought to inspire a love of women and our woman bodies, a feminism that fought to end the endless free labor women provide daily to men, a feminism hell bent on holding men accountable for countless rapes and violences it commits on women every minute of everyday!

Instead that feminism has been traded for the feminism of "choice"! Which means you're a good feminist if you support your sisters getting their brains beat in because its their "choice" to stay with their husband, you're a good feminist if you support women selling their asses on the street because they "choose" to do so, you're a good feminist if you support you sisters humiliating and denigrating themselves in pornography because its their "choice" in how they choose to earn a living, you're a good feminist if you support women who reject feminism because its their "choice", you're a good feminist if you support women starving or mutilating their bodies however they see fit because they "choose" to, you're a good feminist if you support female youths who look and dress like they just stepped out of a glam mag for boy attention cuz they "choose" to, you're a good feminist for supporting drunk college girls who choose to pole dance in male sororities, you're a good feminist for supporting a drunk college girls "choice" not to report a rape because "really it was no big deal"!

Feminism of Choice is women choosing to support and actively participate in misogyny, thereby CHOOSING to take part in the destruction of ALL women, EVERYWHERE! How fucking feminist!

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Transgender Equality and the Eradication of non gender Conformist

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This from a proposed new bill in England.

Until the medical establishment catches up to common sense, the TG community will work to tout gender conformity whatever the price/cost in order to legitimate their own conformity or in most Mtf male cases (hetero) their own pathological fetishes.

Before I continue let me point out the greatest issue that lies behind all GL-BT bigotry is MISOGYNY! Until misogyny is truly addresses and eradicated even on a minimal level, they can pass all the GL-BT equality laws till the cows come home or jump over the moon or pigs fly, prejudice, hate and violence against GL-BT individuals will remain firmly intact.

Let me add largest contributor and abuser of misogyny, amply peppered with homophobia amongst the GL-BT is without question the TG community because it reinforces negative gender stereotypes which are particularly harmful to women, and "woman" being the masturbatory idea and goal of the primarily hetero male regime ruling over the TG community with cocks in hand or as some cases my be, on hand.

Now back to this "bill" and those like it that will likely follow. Regarding the "transgender equality" aspect where it is stated "transgender children will also be able to benefit from the new bullying protections in schools" and "the laws surrounding discrimination and incitement to hatred will be extended to cover ‘affiliation’ with the transgender community". Firstly gays and lesbians are the primary targets in school for harassment and specifically those that are non gender conformist, i.e. Butch girls/Queeie boys. In plain english what this means is if your child does not conform to a classifiable gender norm, in order for that child to appreciate the protection rights from such a bill your child must either conform through (transgenderism) or "affiliate" herself/himself with the TG community which in turn requires gender conformity.

So when your 5 y/o baby Butch daughter is bullied on the playground, if a bill like the above is in place at schools your baby Butch will likely be labeled at age FIVE as "transgendered"! So while her bullier may get an earful from the teacher, your daughter will be placed on a road to conformity insuring the delicate balance of female/male gender constructs is not upset regardless of the detriment to her.

Even parents that have the good common sense to challege this kind of ignorance by understanding their daughter merely being a different brand of girl, once the TG label is attached the child will be running from it for the rest of her school days. Given the fragility of child identity one can only imagine what such a sentence would do to a child/teen. If she wasnt suffering from the TG disorder she very well might by the time she's out of high school.

Every man/woman/child deserves equal rights and equal protections, but passing special bills the creation of which has more to do with legitimizing TGism than protection is certainly not how we want to go about it!


Michfest: Defending women only spaces

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Women only spaces are quickly becoming relics of the past. Michfest has struggled for decades to remain one of the last stands for women only space, but even she has buckled in the last 10 years with the rise of "queer" theory, a detrimental lull in lesbian pride and the demise of radical lesbian feminism.

You've all read/heard radical lesbian feminist writing/discussing the multi-layered issues revolving around queer theory and lack of radical lesbian feminist politics that are hurting lesbians and women only spaces. But the truth is even if we were to removed these two components I believe lesbian pride alone would have preserved womens spaces and seen us through these difficult times.

Before queer theory reared its self delusional head, and radical lesbian feminism was a mere backdrop it was lesbian pride that gave rise to womens voices and created womens spaces, including Michfest. And it was lesbian pride that maintained womens spaces and promoted lesbian music, lesbian workshops, and lesbian trade which helped to fund women only spaces.

When I was 20, through circumstance I became privy to an underground radical lesbian feminist chapbook. I quickly got myself added to their list and received this chapbook once a month in a plain brown envelope with no return address showing. I had never seen or read anything like it, nor have I since really. Its pages were filled with radical lesbian ideas, lesbian politics, lesbian erotica, lesbian plays and shorts and lesbian essays written by every colour of lesbian under the sun, all of which filled me with a lesbian pride I didnt even know I possessed! A lesbian pride I had until a few years ago forgot or rather relinquished to adult pleasures, adult problems, adult living.

Until I personally felt the onslaught of malecentrisms tight grip upon my community, my Femme/Butch community my lesbian pride had been in a long slumber. Like rip van winkle before me when I awoke and actually looked around me, REALLY looked, I did not recognize the lesbian landscape that had once inspired me to pride. I take full responsibility for losing sight of my lesbian pride, for its going from a full on 20/20 focus, to periphery to letting it slide out of eyeshot altogether. And I feel the burden and the weight for having lost my lesbian pride everyday. Everyday when I look around my lesbian community and all her branching sub-communities and see them swarming with the buzz of patriarchy and the sting of misogyny it is MY skin that raises with the swell of poison, MY flesh that no balm can sooth, my blood cells racing to my heart envenomed!

I take that responsibility and with precision and precise calculation I shift my lesbian pride back into the forefront, back into focus. Because it is no longer merely a matter of my needing my lesbian pride, but my community needing my lesbian pride! My community needing me to drape her in cheese cloth protecting her from the bombilating interlopers hovering 'round her.

Pride and inspiration are infectious, if each of us who have lost our lesbian pride rediscovers her, her silky smell, her strong hands, her gliding touch, her slow whispering breaths in our ears, together we can rend our lesbian community from the lesbian bed death she has experienced for far too long and bring her once again to the climax of lesbian pride!


Warning-RAPE triggers...Hetero-Mtf homophobia and the killing of gay Mtf men

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There are a couple of important issues I want to address with this post. First lets start with the obvious, male privilege and deception.

Living under patriarchal regimes there are two things etched into all females; men can rape you and men can kill you. Generally this isnt something our mothers sat us down and discussed with us like sex, instead it is something so pervasive in everyday society that every female becomes keenly aware of it by girlhood despite the its unspokenness. So by the time puberty kicks in we're all well aware of our vulnerability to male violence and rape even if we've never experienced these things close to home.

When we're (women) picking fresh fruit from the produce section of our local grocery store and a man smiles at us, while the smile may be nothing more than a "hey I think you're cute" smile, rather than simply enjoy another finding us attractive, while we might feel flattered, in that same moment we feel fear and wonder whats behind the smile. And if Mr Smiley happens to show up in the frozen food section the same time as us smiling his smile.... Now granted its broad daylight and we're in a public place with people all around, yet because of the frequency of male violence and rape against women/girls we feel an uneasiness still.

What does growing up in an atmosphere of the constant threat of male violence and rape against women/girls do to women? It causes us to edit ourselves in the presence of men. Usually by our late teens we're so accustomed to editing ourselves it almost feels dare I say natural. Men on the other hand come into this world holding all the cards, regardless of race, class or later religion.

Men do commit violent acts upon other men, including rape, but due to continued homophobia its rarely admitted or discussed. So males grow up thinking little or nothing about male violence and rape against themselves as a real possibility and statistically they dont have to. Of course there are always male bullies who bully the nerd or the "sissy" boys in school. And while this bullying can be and is terrifying, the males being bullied arent likely concerned about being raped or murdered, and the threat or perceived threat against them is usually one other male and a small group of males, not males in general.

This false sense of security male privilege manifest in men, coupled with homophobia is precisely what got Matthew Shepard murdered after all! And I say that not to minimize the responsibility of the men that murdered him, but to give vox to what allowed a small young gay man who had previously been beaten and raped to leave a straight bar with two straight men he didnt know; the assumed indomitability of male ownership of male privilege! It is also this male ownership of male privilege that allowed Mr. Zapata the shear freedom to blatantly and perhaps thoughtlessly lie about his sex and sexuality which led to his horrific murder as well.

But I believe when we narrow down the abuse, rapes and murders of Mtf men, there is a little more going on than male privilege and homophobia. There is a serious threat coming from within their specific community (the trans community), a whole other homophobia which the gay community is largely exempt from. Unlike the gay and lesbian community who share at the very least one common denominator, our sexual orientation. The TG community is made up of various sexualities, but dominated and directed by one; heterosexuality!

The largest group occupying TG communities, are autogynephilic males, who through male privilege and male appropriation default to a "lesbian" status by their appropriation of "woman" and their retained attractions to women (hetero). The largest group of autogynephiles are white, upwardly mobile Mtf men. Like society in general they of course rule the roost, and like of course general society (hetero-patriarchal) are variously staged homophobes.

These Mtf men do not suffer from body dysphoria, they did not mistakenly "feel" themselves to be girls when young, they werent effeminate boys, they were typical males with typical boyhoods who at some point began masturbating with womens apparel (usually underwear first). A fetish develops which leads to "cross dressing" which for some leads to TGism. These Mtf to men do not have the natural effeminacy homosexual Mtf men have. They do not have the sometimes delicate features homosexual Mtf men have either(a "passing" bonus). Autogynephilic males do not feel they were "born in the wrong body", their TG journey isnt about "matching the outside with the inside" as the disorder is with homosexual Mtf men, instead for the straight Mtf men it is about the creation and ownership of man's IDEA of woman not for themselves but AS themselves for masturbatory fetishary reasons.

So within the TG community if we look closely a multitude of prejudices and inequalities unfold between hetero Mtf men and homo Mtf men that in the end harm (and sometimes kill) homosexual Mtf men. Hetero Mtf men are not only afforded their male privilege, they are statistically afforded, straight privilege, white privilege and class privilege that statistically homosexual Mtf men do not possess. We do not see hetero Mtf men prostituting themselves in order to pay for their TG journey, we see instead primarily men of colour prostituting themselves to pay for their TG journey. We do not see straight Mtf men going to "pump parties", we see homosexual Mtf men of colour attending "pump parties", some of which have died because of these parties.

Yet for all the obvious advantages straight Mtf men have over homosexual Mtf men, there is something the autogynephiles seriously lack that homosexual Mtf's posses, the ability in some cases to "pass" and "pass" without all the perks money can cosmetically buy. But despite all those perks hetero Mtf men rarely if ever "pass". "Passing" has different needs for straight Mtf men as it does for homosexual Mtf men. Homosexual Mtf men desire "passing" because as they're performing the male idea of "woman", they "need" to "pass" in order to attract a man, a heterosexual man. Hetero Mtf men will will give their left nut (and right) in just the hope of "passing" because it is essential to their masturbatory fantasy of themselves as "woman".

Similarly to the female competition patriarchy creates in women, "passing" creates a hierarchy and competitiveness between straight Mtf men and homo Mtf men leaving the straight Mtf men in the dust. It is this "passing" competitiveness coupled with straight Mtf homophobia that equally creates the situations for which homosexual Mtf males are being attacked and sometimes murdered. Straight Mtf males will gladly use these deaths for their own personal political agendas, but because they themselves are homophobic they do nothing to prevent these attacks/deaths from happening!

I liken it to the Reagan AIDS era, according to Reaganettes it was a disease that was "killing all the right people", meaning homosexual men. The homophobia that kills homosexual Mtf men is something that works to the advatage of the straight ugly "unpassable" Mtf males in trans power positions. The more that are murdered the less "passing" competition, the less homosexual Mtfs, the less Mtf's of colour, the less lower class Mtfs. All things the white middle class autogynephile wishes to be erased from his TG community.

If the hetero Mtf males who are clearly in power TRULY cared about their community, they would be issuing online and RT warnings and cautions to their homosexual Mtf counterparts who are generally the Mtf men who face the most potential for danger. They would be advocating to homo Mtf males to be cautious with new partners and most of all be HONEST, long before any sort of intimacy has the chance to occur. And without a doubt they would be at the forefront of the gay and lesbian movement to eradicate homophobia everywhere. But they havent, they dont and they wont because they have no desire or need to confront let alone change their own homophobia!

So the next time you read about another man beating to death an Mtf male, and you're ready to assign complete blame on the murderer, remember the leaders of the TG community are EQUALLY responsible for that death!


Stu Rassmussen or Rosa Parks? I cant tell can you?

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"The Rosa Parks of TGism"???? This is absolutely one of the grossest ill conceived white/male privileged compliments I have ever heard! While Mr. Stu may not have come up with it himself he (as can be seen in the article) willingly accepted and repeated it will a "smile"!

This hideous multitudinous offensive "compliment" surely must bleed through every layer of racism this country has compiled since slavery!

But as a whitie-white, while I cannot comprehend the full extent of this, to the extent I do understand let me say outright I am sick, tired not to mention disgusted as a woman and as a lesbian to continue to remain associated with trans colonialism and its appropriation of P/WOCs and women!

That said, how women, intelligent feminist women could not have foreseen the dangers of where queer theory's illusory roads with their faux streetsigns, delusory directions and cosmetically smoothed potholes would lead I'll never know. The drug induced genitally mutilated pancake make-up faced baby jane hudsons that are now objects in our rear view mirrors have become with a little stretch of highway the Stu Rassmussens, men who are now required nothing more than a dress and a pair of artificial breast implants to proclaim they now proud owner of a "female body"!

Not really a surprise these white men co-opted slave argot so often to describe their "situation" is it?


The average "straight" BF couple?

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A random sample from the random samplings of your typical random couple from your typical current Femme-Butch website.

At Femme-Butch sites everywhere this is what is occurring, straight women in transition back to heterohood and tweener dyke women in transition to an idea of heterohood by means of cosmetics, coupling until the straight women complete their transition.

Now I'm sure you're probably asking yourself what does any of this have to do with Femmes and Butches, so I'll answer you with a resounding NOTHING! If you can show me any Femme-Butch space realtime or online that actually has to do with Femme/Butch lives I'll buy a hat and eat it or worse wear it!

Femmes and Butches have been shoved aside and beaten into submission to make room for "queers" i.e. fucked up straight women and equally fucked up dykes! Both of which who are quietly eroding Femme/Butch herstory with revisionist queer/trans dogmashit as I write! Appropriation is thy name, is the queer/trans mantra and lord forbid any Femme or Butch woman who dare to shine a torch in the corners of reality illuminating the REAL truth!

Do not think for a single moment that I am exaggerating the precariousness of the situation. Femme-Butch vernacular, space, herstory and identity is on the verge of extinction by appropriation. I am of the mindset that nothing short of a "Manhattan" type project to clean house and reestablish our Femme/Butch pasts and presents will ensure the possibility of our futures.


Spoken like a true Mtf MAN

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Irony: a white MAN crying about lesbian- "dyke"-"womyn" appropriating the "trans" community while proclaiming to be a "feminist"!


FBS-the Fat Butch Syndrome

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After a number of convo's over this issue with other Butch women along with working on leveling the idiotic Butch stereotypes I think it quite important to discuss FBS-the fat butch syndrome that is currently plaguing the Femme-Butch community so that we may ferret out the faux butches among the real.

At some point in recent Butch history the Butch community began seeing an increase to the community with over weight dykes. I am not sure precisely when this happened, but I suspect sometime during the gay and lesbian community's pressure to inclusion by post moderns academic PC queer theorist.

as well as the decline in womens knowledge, pride and participation in active feminism in favour of the persistent male gazed IDEA of woman that women remain too afraid to destroy for fear of losing male approval points(lesbians included).

In short Queer theory and declining feminism are the two prime factors which coincide with dyke womens relabeling themselves Butch women. On the queer theory hand we have gloved an "if I say it it is true" pseudo atmosphere and gloved on the other an ultra-feminine-hetero-size-0-equals-real-woman patriatmosphere, together invalidating fat lesbians everywhere!

Identity politics being at the core of queer theory, fat dykes began and continue to wrongfully ID as "butch". Because they are both lesbian and a far cry from the current patriarchal regimes female "idea"(aren't we all), white colonial queer theory has encouraged them instead of finding a home (ID) of their own to simply squat in the home (appropriate the identity) of another, in this case Butch womens!

When a dyke increases her weight ratio to a certain degree she is invalidated as a (feminine) woman in the eyes of patriarchy, but that does not and should not automatically default her to Butch (patriarchally unfeminine). This is where lesbian feminism would have been helpful because it would have established and maintained a form of womencentrism diametrically opposed to dominant cultures malecentrism; woman as object, woman as idea and woman only as good as the strength of the erection she creates in men!

Instead lesbian feminism has been trampled asunder by queer theory's copulatious affair with patriarchy and the preservation of male hegemony by fortifying the masculine and feminine babel tower constructs which surround all patriarchal regimes.

Fat does not equal unfeminine anymore than Butch equals masculine.

kicking the towers with my barefeet

Mtf "disclosure" and the truth beyond "trans-truth"

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Its fair to say to regular readers of this blog that I have more than adequately established the mythomania involved in creating the "trans identity".

The mirroring of trans mythomania is absolutely necessary to the flimsy trans identity if that identity is to be maintained. If someone in the life of the trans person in question chooses reality over the counterfeit ID most TGs will cut those people out of their lives completely in the same way they butcher off body parts.

Just as the TGs lie to themselves they need others to reinforce those lies right back to them in as much as a baby needs its own smile reflected back to it in order to know it exist. Trans identity is very much an infantile state of mind. When the trans-infant-ID ceases to experience smiles, things get ugly and Mtf men sometimes get violent because these are adult men after all, not infants in a crib.

But like that infant tossing out smiles and getting smiles tossed back, the trans-infant-ID will do whatever it has to, hurt whoever it has to, LIE to whoever it has to, NOT because it is interested in "protecting" the reflector, but solely for its own narcissistic pathological desires!!!

Trans Identity is founded on lies, built upon lies and relies upon lies and we all know in our hearts and minds nothing ever good comes from lies!


From a MAJOR Mtf Website

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This is a word for word article from a known trans website. The website was created and is ran strictly by autogynephilic males.

This article was linked and is being discussed on several different "trans-academic" news groups. (and NO I am not kidding!)

Not only do these men hate their "junk", mutilate their "junk", they're practicing JUNK science in order to justify their "junk" ideas!

As a lesbian and a radical politically minded lesbian I do not want to be associated with a selfish community so out of touch with reality they're now using Veterinary Medicine to establish some far reaching links to explain the causes for their paraphilic behaviors!!!

I call BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!

Lesbians have a higher chance of getting breast cancer than straight women, why are millions of dollars being wasted on JUNK science by a group (T) that claims to be a part of the gay and lesbian community??? Could this money not better be spent on improving treatments or a possible cure for breast cancer or AIDS???? The trans community has no problem whatsoever withattacking on gay and lesbian groups for positions that might momentarily benefit more gays and lesbians than trans, so why arent gays and lesbians speaking up about this bullshit??????

Big fucking deal, a trans-ENDA gets passed and its perfectly legal for autogynephilic men to use the ladies room with our daughters, meanwhile GAYS AND LESBIANS ARE DYING EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!!!!


Mtf/s attack the mentally challenged

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This is one of two comments I received from the autogynephile known as "zoe brain". It is in response the to the post I made yesterday regarding the intersexed female "nicky".

I am not sure what "zoe" is talking about when he says my letting "men in", but I suspect neither does he. To date there have been, nor are there any men in or involved in the NRLFF. This blog inst the NRLFF this is my blog, a personal blog and many Mtf men have commented here as has he (zoe) in the last 2 years.

As to "taking" nicky on as "one of" our "own", this too makes no sense. From the onset of the NRLFF ( late last year) the group has had uncounted private discussions regarding the transjacking of the Intersexed community and all agreed it important to speak out against trans appropriation where ever we find it.

Specifically concerning "nicky" it became apparent shortly after she contacted the NRLFF for help, after being trans-attacked on multiple sites, that while we believe "nicky" to be intersexed, we also believe her to be retarded or borderline retarded. We of course make no judgment calls regarding this matter, merely a state of opinion based on conduct and content.

So while I and NRLFF member Blade were rightly angered over "nicky's" thievery of our name/words, we were/are much more upset over the trans treatment of this very likely retarded person. In the week I've had contact with "nicky" she has inundated my email box with links to various places that she has been arguing her "cause". I hadn't really bothered with many of these links till this morning after receiving "Zoe's" comments. And what I found at every single link were Mtf men making fun of, making light of, dismissing, laughing at, taunting, jeering and all around assailing "nicky" for her "lack of intelligence" in one way or another!

As someone with a retarded brother, the ugly vile actions of these Mtf men are infuckingexcusable and frankly make me fucking retch! This is nothing more than sport to these Mtf Men, except instead "kick the can" they're playing "kick the 'tard"!!!! Common sense (which TGs lack btw) would suggest to just about anyone simply ignore "nicky" and proceed with what you're doing, she'll get bored and move on. But even the ramblings of a borderline mentally challenged person challenging TG ID sets into motion a crack into the fantasied foundation ID which each Mtf man relies if he is to protect his faux ego from shattering!

It is clear from these hideous assaults that no amount of faux female hormones can ever truly create female empathy in men! It is also clear just how fucking low the TG community will sink in order to deny their own mental illness!!!!


The GenderQueer Trans Bridge

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"Prefers women who THINK of themselves as women"

Think obviously being the operative word here. Note also the oxymoronic "I dont know whether to stay true to myself or keep her happy"! No truer words have been spoken that could more accurately capture the inanity of queer/trans theory! And the pathologically narcissistic comment just tops the post off cherry perfect!


Trans appropriation of the intersexed along with a transtwisted analogy

Is there no limit to what the trans propaganda machine will use in order to legitimate its mental disorder???

The "harry B. syndrome" is a fictitious "condition" sprung from the disordered minds of autogynephiles. Harry Benjamin's name and the Intersexed condition have been arrogated to licit "born in the wrong body" credibility by straight middle class white Mtf men.

Using their patriarchal male given privileges Mtf men have went from linking their fictitious nonsense with the Intersexed to over running Intersexed communities, forums, groups and serious studies that could benefit those truly born intersexed.

If you think I'm exaggerating try yahooing or googling "intersexed". Nearly everything that comes up is "trans" related, and much of that trans pornography! All the fucking while Instersexed babies are continuing to be ignorantly mutilated by a malecentric penis-too-small-girl/clit-too-big-boy sexed medical establishment because the Intersexed movement which is struggling to change that ignorance has been transjacked by the pathological narcissistic!!!

Intersexed babies are suffering, Intersexed children are suffering, Intersexed adults are suffering and the progress to put an end to that suffering is being muffled by white hetero privileged males who put their masturbatory fetishes before all that suffering in order to justify their own selfish disorder!!!!

There is much blood on many hands already, more blood will be spilled through needless mutilations, more hands sopping red, the worst among them being the trans apologist, their hands are fucking dripping of it! One can only surmise the vast number of future Lady MacBeth's this post modern, post queer, post feminist cultus is creating.

They however do not and will not have my sympathies, those are reserved for those truly in need!


Missing Person Kristin Snyder: Lost in a Sea of Myths Pt 2

The next part in our forensic postmortem of the mockumentary The Lost Women of NXIVM will consist of dissecting the major proponents surrou...