Change Your World-NOT your Body

Sunday, October 28, 2012

Transmen and the Fear and Hatred of Women-Women's Bathrooms


A recent comment I wanted to briefly address on its own...






Setting aside the oxymoronic sexism, this has become a regular response from the trans female community whenever the issue of women/lesbian women voice their fears/concerns/female rights to have female only spaces, particularly intimate spaces such as locker rooms and bathrooms free from men/trans men. There are several things I find disturbing/ironic about the above response and all those like them that spew like so much pea soup from the mouths of trans females.

Disturbing because given that statistically a great number of trans females have been molested as little girls and/or raped as young women due to the far reaching astronomical number of sex abuses that occur among the female populous by males. One would expect that regardless of where these abuses took place, there would be a common female understanding and empathy among trans females for women's concerns with males in their intimate spaces. Instead what we find is just the opposite, trans females leveling the pure hated they had/have for their own female vulnerability from male sexual violence toward females whom in their mind remain vulnerable. This vulnerability is held like a knife against the throats of women by trans females rather than common ground with which to work toward change.

Currently there are ZERO trans female groups/collectives that challenge men/male violence against women. This speaks directly to the diametrical message from trans females that their transition had nothing to do with their hatred toward being/looking female or hatred toward female-kind and everything to do with colorizing their true selves. What becomes implicitly clear since there are no collective trans female groups raging against the violence against women, is their own deep identification with males/male perpetrators of violence and the power behind both.

The irony of the above comment (and the like) is this, if what this trans female says is true and "a bathroom is just a bathroom" why did she feel the need to use the men's room before testosterone use and for that matter why would she feel the need to use the men's rooms after testosterone use? That men's rooms signify something VERY important to trans females cannot go unnoticed. The copious amount of posts/comments on the world wide web alone of trans females seeing their using the men's room for the first time as a trans female right of passage into the man-hood has become par for the trans female course.

Women rightly fear trans males in their bathrooms because of centuries of male rape/violence against women. Trans females fear of using women's bathroom has to do with them fearing of their own female nature.

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60 comments:

  1. Most women aren't trembling in fear that a man or an MtF is going to come into the women's restroom and rape them.

    Mostly rape is perpetrated by someone you know personally, and happens on dates or other situations in which you are not in the bathroom.

    I'm sure that there have been times when someone has been raped in a public bathroom, but it's by no means common, and not something you should try to scare women about. Trying to make women perpetually afraid of rape isn't going to help anyone. Educating women about the reality of rape, about how to protect themselves in situations where rape is actually likely to happen, would be nice.

    This isn't a bad bit of information, for example: http://www.girlshealth.gov/safety/saferelationships/daterape.cfm

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  2. I don't believe that there are no trans groups that don't do anything to stop violence against women. It might not be the primary function of most trans groups (like an African American group might not make that their primary function, or even most gay rights groups, which generally are more focused on marriage and workplace equality right now).

    But, I have to catch a bus in five minutes so I don't have time to research it now. Just saying, if someone else doesn't beat me to the punch, I am fairly confident I can prove that comment wrong.

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  3. Dirt, I replied in your last post saying that I use the male facilities such as bathrooms and changing rooms and if I am completely honest, many of the facilities I use are mixed anyway (and no, that doesn't mean I use the disabled bathroom). I was brought up using mixed "intimate" areas such as bathrooms and changing rooms, so feeling threatened by people has never been an issue. Mixed family changing rooms and bathrooms are very common here and I'm sorry that you seem to have never had the experience of using them. I do, however, find your statement about abuse of trans people in their youth to be in quite poor taste and also very presumptive while managing to be potentially damaging.

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  4. I encountered a challenge I hadn't considered, in finding trans groups that take a stand against violence against women. Most trans groups are also gay, lesbian, and bi groups. For the most part, the only kinds of "groups" I could find that were trans only were support groups. There are a handful of advocacy groups that focus on trans legal or education issues, but that's pretty fair. There's lots of women's advocacy groups that focus on legal and education issues for women, and they aren't going to dip their toes in other issues.

    So, most groups that welcome trans individuals are also gay and lesbian groups. I know, trans-deniers hate the "alphabet soup" of GBLT. That doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of GBLT groups that work to end violence. Such as:
    Community united against violence: http://www.cuav.org/
    Colorado anti-violence program: http://www.coavp.org/
    Anti-violence project: http://www.avp.org/
    National gay and lesbian taskforce (which leaves T out of the title, but still includes trans people): http://www.ngltf.org/
    The Network la Red: http://tnlr.org/
    Here's some others: http://www.vawnet.org/links/violence-gay.php

    There's also the Trans Women's anti-violence project, which works to end violence against all trans people, no matter what their gender identity is.: http://transfeminism.tumblr.com/


    Some transmen may not want to be in a trans group. They may refer to be in organizations for men. They also have a lot of options
    Men against sexual violence: http://menagainstsexualviolence.org/
    Men can stop rape: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
    Men ending rape: http://www.menendingrape.org/
    Men stopping violence: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/
    National organization for men against sexism: http://www.nomas.org/sys-tmpl/door/
    National compadres network: http://www.nationalcompadresnetwork.com/
    White ribbon campaign: http://www.whiteribbon.com/

    I'd like to see what groups Dirt's talking about that she feels don't challenge violence against women.

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  5. I don't understand what the "oxymoronic sexism" is. Please explain.

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  6. "Trans females fear of using women's bathroom has to do with them fearing of their own female nature. "

    I call bullshit on this. FtMs don't fear using the women's restroom. If there is any fear involved, then they fear the reactions of women to someone who appears male in the women's restroom. I think any androgynous or butch ladies out there will know what I'm talking about. Ever since I was a teenager, I've had women yell at me for walking into the women's restroom because I had short hair and never wore girly clothes. I've had women shriek at me and berate me. And I've seen it happen to other people.

    Mostly, trans folks just don't want going to the bathroom to create a big fuss. We have to think about which bathroom we're going to use, because biologic men and women make a big deal about it at us. I would be really happy if no one ever asked me what bathroom I use again. I promise, if all the non-trans people stopped talking about it, I would happily never talk about it again myself.

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  7. I don't understand this comment: "This vulnerability is held like a knife against the throats of women by trans females rather than common ground with which to work toward change."

    What change are you saying FtMs are refusing to work toward? Keeping in mind that your claim that there are no trans groups that want to end violence against women is not true, I don't know what you're talking about. We want lots of change! We want people to be respected equally no matter what gender they are. We want to stop violence against people based on gender identity. We want equality for men and women in the workplace. And we work with a lot of women to do that.

    It seems more that you, Dirt, are refusing to work with trans folks in order to change the world for better.

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  8. Isn't this the quote from the transman in question?

    "Do trans "men" insist on using the men's bathroom like trans "women" insist on using the women's bathroom? I have always used the men's room growing up and still do after transitioning. A bathroom is just a bathroom. What is it to you what bathroom we use? Who cares if a MTF uses the women's bathroom? Scared of a little competition or something."

    I'm not sure what "scared of a little competition or something" means.

    FACT: Google "Paul (aka Paula) Witherspoon" who is a registered sex offender was caught using the women's restrooms in Texas. He is the person wearing the dress and lipstick. What is Paul (Paula's) defense? It's the gender identity disorder. All people have to do is google Paula's name.

    FACT: Richard Masbruch (Sherri) sadistically tortured women with live electrical wires before raping them. By the way, he had his penis when he committed this brutal crime. Since Sherri is now in a women's prison in California, she gets to shower with women every day and use the bathrooms as they use. So, torture and rape two women, self-mutilate your own penis in prison, say you're now Sherri, and they will send you to a women's prison so you can have daily showers with the females.

    FACT: Two Washington State high-school Girls Swim Teams were stripped of their Federal Title IX rights by Olympia Washington School officials after the teens and their parents refused to allow the girls to shower with a middle-aged retired military man calling himself Colleen. The man was discovered in the women’s sauna by a high-school teen girls swim team. Parents refused to let their minor girls undress in front of him. As a result, local school officials have forced the girls into a small ancillary locker room space and given use of the women’s locker room to the male.

    To illustrate how enlightened his is as opposed to the dumb high school girls who get to look at his penis, he actually believes that his ability to parade his penis around high school girls is somehow similar to the civil rights movement. I wish I were making this **it up. Apparently, the logic goes like this. If a fully intact ex military man wearing a dress can't change clothes with high school girls, it's similar to a black man not being able to use the same water fountain as a white person.

    "Francis believes the students need to be informed.

    “This is not 1959 Alabama. We don’t call police for drinking from the wrong water fountain,” said Francis

    http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/

    Although he can be seen wearing makeup and a brightly colored blouse, and has long hair, he still is a fully intact male. Indeed, on various websites, he states that he rather likes his penis, and isn't sure if he even wants to undergo sex reassignment surgery.

    Shame on those horrid, discriminating young females.

    I AM NOT SAYING ALL MTF TRANSWOMEN ARE RAPISTS OR MORONS LIKE COLLEN FRANCIS. However, because of trans activists and their legions of attorneys, transwomen (even those pre-op with their penises fully intact) are demanding access to all the following:

    (1.) Women's bathrooms
    (2.) Women's showers/locker rooms
    (3.) Women's prisons

    Chaz Bono like her father stumping for Republicans (we know how much they love all the gay, lesbian, and queer folk)

    http://www.wilshireandwashington.com/2012/10/chaz-bono-cindy-mccain-among-co-hosts-of-mary-bono-mack-event.html#ixzz292xSWQsH

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  9. 1. I would be arrested if I walked into a woman's restroom. Period.

    2. Mens rooms often stink. They served as no rite of passage for me. Plus, men fart and poop loudly with no reservation. Gross.

    3. I've known transmen who worked at anti-domestic violence organizations. I can't swing a dead cat in my town without hitting an ftm social worker. These people spend their lives addressing
    ALL kinds of violence, homelessness, hunger, poverty, abuse, addiction, racism, homophobia. You are just trying to make us look selfish when, in fact, we are statistically less selfish than the general population.

    4. Trans people are still being killed all the time. Why would you demand that we put our own people aside and put our energy into women? I'd like to see white feminist lesbians address racism and classism, but I understand that they feel stressed and exhausted by their own concerns. Such as what color SUV to buy, or how they felt uncomfortable with the chauvinist flat-screen TV salesman. Poor dears.

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  10. Man you guys don't think this through.

    FACT: Amy Lilley raped a girl and is still allowed to use women's restrooms because she is female. You can google her name too.

    FACT: Lesbian rapists are sent to prison with other women.

    Dealing with sex offenders is very difficult. Men who rape men get put in jail with men, women who rape women get put in jail with women. Pedophiles don't discrimiate when it comes to the gender of the kids they abuse, but when they're done with jail time, they get to use public restrooms where children of their same gender may be. None of this should have anything to do with transgender identity specifically, and everything to do with how we deal with sex offenders no matter what their gender.

    People do rape each other a lot in prison. That's a really big problem, and it affects everyone in prison, no matter what their gender identity. So again, not a trans specific issue, it's an issue for everybody in prison.

    OPINION: I personally do think of the need for seperate mens and womens restrooms as segregation. People don't just start raping each other because they're in a locker room or bathroom. And I don't think it's healthy for our society to be afraid of seeing naked people. We vilify the naked bodies of women, and teach women to be afraid of men's bodies.


    PS: There are a lot of gay, lesbian, and transgender republicans, so I'm not sure what the point of the part about Chaz Bono is. (they even have a website: www.gayrepublicans.org/ )

    I have said before, and I'll probably say many more times: there are bad trans people. There are trans people who are jerks, who are criminals, who are sex offenders. But there are a lot more non-trans people who fall into those categories. And there are a lot of lesbians who fall into those categories. So if we wanted to say any group of people were bad, we could find plenty of examples of bad inviduals to point out as representatives of those groups. The vast majority of people, however, are not criminals, sex offenders, or otherwise terrible human beings. And that includes the vast majority of transsexuals.

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  11. Wait, where did Dirt get that comment she quoted in this post? I thought it must have been a comment on her last blog post, but it's not in there. Did she delete it and then use part of it here? Did she just make this up? Is there more context to this that we're missing?

    I paid pretty close attention to that thread and never saw that comment in the first place. I'm thinking it either came from a different thread, or Dirt made it up.

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  12. Of course she made it up. Dirt makes up shit all the time.

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  13. Damn, apparently the attitude here is that owning a penis is like owning a gun.
    Not to mention the stereotype that everyone with a penis is automatically a pervert.

    If you are worried about males attracted to females using women's bathrooms, maybe we should ban lesbians as well?



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  14. "I'm not sure what "scared of a little competition or something" means".

    Yeah, I didn't get that either. Another tranny on his period I guess.

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  15. @ 1:59

    Do you dismiss things women say when they're on their period too? Or is that only OK when you're being dismissive of people who don't like? It's a very misogynistic thing to say about someone. Even if the person identifies as male, if they do have their period that's still a feminine trait, and hating femininity in anyone is misogynist.

    Is this a feminist site, or is it just a place for transphobia? If it's just for transphobia, at least be honest about it and admit that fact, don't try to legitimize it by pretending you're a feminist (as most of the trans-deniers here do).

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  16. I'm a butch dyke, and I'm completely terrified of women's bathrooms. I never know which bathroom to use. In most situations, I just avoid it as much as possible or pee behind a damn bush or something. If I absolutely have to use a public bathroom, I often use the men's room because I can just blend in.

    I agree with the person who said that the whole idea of separate bathrooms/locker rooms/whatever is the problem.

    Once when I was younger, I went into a large public women's bathroom (I think it was a convention center or something). There were many occupied stalls, but no women happened to be outside the stalls, so nobody saw me walk in. I used the bathroom and went to wash my hands, and there was a young woman standing near the sinks looking at me horrified. I washed up and walked out. As I walked out I heard her yell loudly "Everyone in here just peed in front of a GUY!!" As if somehow I had been able to see all of them peeing, even though the stall doors were closed? Is it really that big of a deal who is around when you pee? I'd much rather bathrooms not have a gender, or just have only single-user bathrooms, than the current system. And I'm a butch lesbian, not a trans person.

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  17. I just dive in to whichever one is closest...

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  18. "I do, however, find your statement about abuse of trans people in their youth to be in quite poor taste and also very presumptive while managing to be potentially damaging."

    Although I generally agree with Dirt on most subjects, the way that she phrased a few things in the article seemed a bit incoherent.

    However, if we are talking about female to male transitioners, since they were born as female children, there is a high probability that they have experienced some form of sexual or emotional abuse.

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  19. "OPINION: I personally do think of the need for seperate mens and womens restrooms as segregation."

    Is this individual saying that forty year old men need to be using the same bathroom as a ten year old girl? A ten or eleven year old girl goes to the restroom while some forty year old man pulls out his penis to pee. Jesus Christ all mighty, is this what they really believe? This is how they really think of women. Women need to read this and understand exactly what this means.

    "Damn, apparently the attitude here is that owning a penis is like owning a gun.
    Not to mention the stereotype that everyone with a penis is automatically a pervert."

    No one is saying everyone with a penis is a pervert. Let me repeat this. NOT everyone with a penis is a pervert. However, I don't care what anyone says. If a biological male still has his penis, he needs to stay OUT of women's restrooms, showers, and locker rooms.

    "If you are worried about males attracted to females using women's bathrooms, maybe we should ban lesbians as well?"

    According to every reliable and credible source, since they are still FEMALE, lesbians are far MORE LIKELY to be victims of sexual assault or rape than perpetrators.

    "National criminal justice statistics reveal that of all adults and juveniles who come to the attention of the authorities for sex crimes, females account for less than 10% of these cases (FBI, 2006). Specifically, arrests of women represent only 1% of all adult arrests for forcible rape and 6% of all adult arrests for other sex offenses."

    "In contrast to the approximately 140,000 men incarcerated in prisons nationwide for sex crimes, only 1,500 women are estimated to be imprisoned for these offenses (Harrison & Beck, 2005). They represent only 1% of all adults incarcerated for sex offenses, and 2% of all females in prison."

    Department of Justice Statistic

    http://www.csom.org/pubs/female_sex_offenders_brief.pdf

    This is how much they really respect women and their autonomy. Don't let that 5 ft. 2 inch 135 lb. lesbian in the restroom or she might rape a female. Instead, let the 185 lb. 6 foot tall forty year old man in the restroom with your teenage daughter.

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  20. This is another pre-op fully entact male using the women's restroom. In reality, this person probably is more cross dresser than actual male to female.

    I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH GUYS IN DRAG AS LONG AS THEY STAY OUT OF THE WOMEN'S RESTROOM.

    http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/sep/16/transgender-woman-in-fight-to-use-restrooms/

    "Vancouver resident Norma Ballhorn has worked hard to become a woman. She takes a concoction of hormones, changed her name from "Norman" to "Norma," updated her driver's license to reflect her female identity and wears clothing with feminine embellishments, such as butterfly sleeves. But Ballhorn, 56, still isn't allowed to use the ladies room at three Clark County bars, she said.

    "They're using their right to refuse service to discriminate against me," Ballhorn said.

    She filed a complaint Monday against Legends Food & Fun with the State Human Rights Commission. She said she is considering filing complaints against Icehouse Bar & Grill and 3 Monkeys Pub on the same grounds.

    "I'm trying to give them a chance to talk to me, give them information and maybe change their minds about me," she said of Icehouse and 3 Monkeys.

    Laura Lindstrand, a commission policy analyst, said the commission has received the complaint and assigned an investigator to it. Investigations typically take four to 12 months, she said.

    While law doesn't specifically address transgender use of public restrooms, the commission's interpretation of the state's freedom-from-discrimination law is that businesses are required to allow a person to use the restroom of the sex he or she identifies with, Lindstrand said.

    Ballhorn said she enjoys going to the bars to socialize ever since she was divorced from her wife of 32 years.

    "I just like to have a beer and visit with other people because I live all by myself in a 29-foot fifth-wheel," she said.

    Ballhorn, a retired ironworker and Vietnam veteran, said she filed a complaint against Legends after a bartender told her to leave. Ballhorn was banned from returning to the bar after attempting to use the ladies room and getting into an argument with the bar's owner over the issue, said Legends bartender Cathy Botkin.

    Botkin said women complained about Ballhorn's being in the restroom because Ballhorn has not yet had a sex-change operation.

    3 Monkey manager Joel Sweeten said he also asked Ballhorn not to use the ladies room because women customers told him it made them uncomfortable.

    "My policy is, when ladies tell me they don't want him in there, I don't let him in," Sweeten said. "My concern for the women's safety is more important."

    When Ballhorn returned to Legends on Aug. 27, the bartender called law enforcement. Two Clark County sheriff's deputies showed up and told Ballhorn that if she didn't leave, she would be charged with criminal trespassing, Ballhorn said.

    Botkin said Ballhorn was welcome in the bar as long as she didn't use the ladies room and as long as Ballhorn didn't act aggressively when employees asked her not to use the ladies room.

    Botkin said Ballhorn was welcome in the bar as long as she didn't use the ladies room and as long as Ballhorn didn't act aggressively when employees asked her not to use the ladies room."

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  21. "OPINION: I personally do think of the need for seperate mens and womens restrooms as segregation. People don't just start raping each other because they're in a locker room or bathroom. And I don't think it's healthy for our society to be afraid of seeing naked people. We vilify the naked bodies of women, and teach women to be afraid of men's bodies."

    This is most disturbing to me. There is nothing wrong with nudity in and of itself, but this is down right creepy sounding. Listen to this...."and teach women to be afraid of men's bodies"

    So, don't teach your little girl to be afraid of a grown man using a women's restroom. Is this what this individual is saying?

    Men have been perving in women's restrooms and dressing areas for as long as anyone can remember. For example, peepholes in women's bathrooms, or hidden cameras in the ladies changing room. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it's nothing new by any means.

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  22. Some transmen may not want to be in a trans group. They may refer to be in organizations for men. They also have a lot of options
    Men against sexual violence: http://menagainstsexualviolence.org/
    Men can stop rape: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
    Men ending rape: http://www.menendingrape.org/
    Men stopping violence: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/
    National organization for men against sexism: http://www.nomas.org/sys-tmpl/door/
    National compadres network: http://www.nationalcompadresnetwork.com/
    White ribbon campaign: http://www.whiteribbon.com/

    As a female, I want to take this opportunity to THANK all the men who have fought tirelessly for women's rights. There were even a few male suffragettes who supported a woman's right to vote. Of course, we know that if women themselves didn't demand their rights, nothing would ever get done.

    Again, thank you.

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  23. Men against sexual violence: http://menagainstsexualviolence.org/
    Men can stop rape: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
    Men ending rape: http://www.menendingrape.org/
    Men stopping violence: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/
    National organization for men against sexism: http://www.nomas.org/sys-tmpl/door/
    National compadres network: http://www.nationalcompadresnetwork.com/
    White ribbon campaign: http://www.whiteribbon.com/

    As a female, I want to take this opportunity to THANK all the men who have fought tirelessly for women's rights. There were even a few male suffragettes who supported a woman's right to vote. Of course, we know that if women themselves didn't demand their rights, nothing would ever get done.

    Again, thank you.

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  24. Do trans "men" insist on using the men's bathroom like trans "women" insist on using the women's bathroom? I have always used the men's room growing up and still do after transitioning. A bathroom is just a bathroom. What is it to you what bathroom we use? Who cares if a MTF uses the women's bathroom? Scared of a little competition or something."

    Why do transmen (biological females who transition) assume that all men feel comfortable using a restroom or locker room with transmen?


    http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=21669

    Pitt seeks to dismiss discrimination claims

    Pitt has filed motions to dismiss two discrimination claims filed in April with the Pittsburgh Commission on Human Relations.

    The first complaint was filed April 16 by a former Pitt-Johnstown transgender student, who was born female but identifies as a male. UPJ junior Seamus Johnston was expelled in January for ignoring a directive to stop using the men’s locker room facilities unless he could produce an amended birth certificate.

    Despite being warned to stay out of the men's locker room, this biological female transgender continued to use the men's facilities.

    What is the solution? In all honesty, I don't know. Perhaps we need MORE gender neutral facilities. This seems logical to me. There is, however, problems with that approach because if we have all gender neutral facilities, how does this impact women? Is each individual going to have a separate cubicle in which to shower, dress, or use the restroom? I can't see this happening because we would have to totally restructure conventional shower rooms, locker rooms, and restrooms. I don't care what anyone says, females need and deserve separate space to change, shower, and relieve themselves separate from males. This must also include pre-op transwomen who still have their penises. If a biological male still has his penis and is pre-op, he needs to stay OUT of women's locker rooms, showers, and women's restrooms. Also, I can understand why male college students would feel uncomfortable having to undress or shower with a biological female transgender person.




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  25. @ 9:10:

    Yes I am saying that. What I think of women is that women are powerful, beautiful individuals who don't need to be afraid of penises.

    I know I didn't say this specifically, but unisex bathrooms don't generally have urinals, so men aren't pulling their penises out in front of little girls. They use a stall, just like women do, so that nobody is seeing anyone else's genitalia.

    Though, in locker rooms or saunas, where you might see more nakedness, I'm fine with men and women (and children with adult supervision) using the same area. You get places in other parts of the world where you can see naked people of the opposite gender (like bathhouses in Japan), and people don't get traumatized or go around raping each other. We need to deconstruct the fear of our nakedness, not encourage it by continuing to segregate men and women.

    It's true that lesbians are less likely to be sexual predators then men, but it still happens. Also straight women can be sexual predators (sexual predators don't always pray on the opposite sex). Since there are so few MtF individuals in general, banning and much fewer MtF sexual deviants, it doesn't make any more sense to ban them from restrooms than it does to ban lesbians from them.

    The point the other anon was trying to make about "maybe we should ban lesbians" is not that they want to ban lesbians. They think banning lesbians would be stupid. They're saying that banning MtFs from the woman's restroom is stupd.

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  26. @ 9:26

    That's not a guy in drag. That's a woman, who should have the right to use the woman's restroom.

    What's more likely to happen to a transwoman is that if she tries to use the men's restroom, she'll get harassed, beat up, or potentially killed by men. Trans people are victims of that kind of brutality all too often.

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  27. @ 9:34:

    What I'm saying is that society needs to teach our children not to be afraid of grown men in the women's restroom.

    Even if you can't see the damage that segregating men and women causes, at least admit that if a man really wants to peep or hurt someone in a restroom, it doesn't matter if there's seperate men and women's restrooms. As you said, pervs doing pervy things isn't new. Obviously, having seperate restrooms doesn't keep the pervs out.

    All having seperate restrooms does is give close minded people the opportunity to deny a transgendered person access to the restroom that is labeled according to the gender they identify with.

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  28. Actually, something else I just thought of. People tend to police their own. If men and women were using the same restroom, and a guy was perving in there, then they would not only have to worry about women confronting them, but other men too.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying women should have men around to protect them. And there are definitely men who would be too meek to do anything about it. But having more people around, male or female, is going to reduce the chances of anything illegal happening in a space like a bathroom.

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  29. @9:43:
    "Why do transmen (biological females who transition) assume that all men feel comfortable using a restroom or locker room with transmen? "

    Who says we assume that? There are definitely men who feel uncomfortable with that. Where I live, those men are told to find a different bathroom if they can't get over their prejudices.

    In other places, the men might harass or attack a transman in their bathroom. There needs to be more support for transmen from the community to stop this from continuing to happen.

    Also, I don't care what anyone says, I disagree with you.

    Huh, somehow, saying "I don't care what anyone says" doesn't magically make one position objectively correct. Turns out there's lots of different opinions and gray areas, even if you are ignoring what everyone says.

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  30. But why do you expect all of society to be your self-help group? Fortunately, I know women won't agree to gender-neutral bathrooms, especially at the expense of losing the women's bathroom, anywhere in the world except in very few places. I'd say FtM's keep using the men's bathroom, and if all the micro-penis guys start complaining you're hogging the stalls, we could always just switch bathrooms altogether, build stalls around the urinals (so MtF's keep their options open and FtM's can practice using their STPs and no one has to watch.)Or is it more like there aren't adequate mirrors in the men's for all the primping/posing FtMs do?

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  31. are there any stats on how many people are raped in public restrooms every year?
    Particularly by transwomen?

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  32. Anon@6:05,
    We know only a fraction of rapes even get reported. Also, every rape victim I know has PTSD (at least)and it's not something you can always control, even with best intentions and therapy, and they should be spared the unexpected dangling male parts in the locker/shower room especially. I really don't care what body parts anyone has or doesn't have when they're in the bathroom stall.
    Germany

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  33. Lets be realistic, if someone is going to commit such a heinous crime such as rape, what law is going to stop them from entering the wrong bathroom...
    If someones intention is to enter a bathroom and rape someone, they are going to do it regardless of who is or isn't allowed in that bathroom.

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  34. Anon@8:00,
    So is your point that there should be no separate bathrooms for men and women?
    Germany

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  35. I think there should be gendered restrooms and I think transgender people should be allowed in the room that matches their gender. I don't see any harm.
    I don't think we have gendered bathrooms to reduce the possibility of rape.

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  36. @ 4:18

    Your post is really confusing.

    I don't want society to be my self help group. I want to change society for the better. In the same way we need to change society to stop accepting rape culture. What I'm trying to say is that it's a bigger picture.

    The rest... I have no response because I guess it's just random insulting ranting.

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  37. @ 6:05 AM

    There are statistics (though as Germany pointed out, rape is under reported). Most rape happens in a person's home, or at the home of a friend/acquaintance. If you look up rape statistics, there isn't even a category for how often it happens in the bathroom. Because it doesn't happen much.

    As for tranwomen who rape women, you could do a google search for that and find all of the instances that we know about on the first page.

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  38. @Germany, 8:20.

    Yes I do. I should point out that I don't know any other trans person who feels this way. It may be I'm unique in this opinion. And I came to this conclusion years ago, before I identified as trans.

    Gendered bathrooms are segregation.

    And in unisex bathrooms, there should not be urinals (I've never seen urinals in any of the many, many unisex bathrooms that you can already find across the country). So there's no risk of someone having to see anyone's penis in that case.

    Except in the case of perverts who want to flash. In which case, it doesn't matter if there's gendered bathrooms or not. Because they'll go wherever they want to break the law.

    Here's another benefit of unisex bathrooms: a parent will never have to feel they need to be separated from their child in public restrooms. There comes a certain age when kids won't go into the wrong-gendered bathroom with their parent. Family bathrooms aren't always available, so an opposite-gendered parent has to leave their kid alone if they let the kid use the bathroom they want. There's risk there for male or female children, probably greater risk than that of an adult woman being sexually assaulted in any bathroom.

    Anyway, I personally believe gendered bathrooms are segregation. But in real life (not on the internet with a bunch of anonymous people on a terrible blog), I advocate for more family/unisex bathrooms. So people then have the option to pick a gendered bathroom or use a unisex one.

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  39. "As for tranwomen who rape women, you could do a google search for that and find all of the instances that we know about on the first page."

    I did a search and didn't come up with a single incident, what exactly should I search for? Or did you mean transwomen who have raped women at all and not in bathrooms? cos I was looking for bathroom rapes.

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  40. When I was young I didn't have a mother, so when I went swimming my dad would take me in to the mens changing rooms/showers, never did me any harm, actually I don't remember seeing a single penis, I might have, but I don't remember.

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  41. @ 11:38 AM

    I meant transwomen who have raped women at all. I have never heard of a trans person raping someone in a public bathroom. As far as I know, it's never happened.

    someone said they didn't know any women who would be OK with desegregating bathrooms. We have a few commenters who are giving examples of them being OK with the men's room. I've also been polling my non-trans coworkers. So far, most are OK with it and currently use the men's room when it's more convenient (it's pretty common in my state where that's legal).

    The two who have had an issue with it had two different reasons with not wanting to use the men's room.
    One is afraid of all public bathrooms (due to anxiety issues).
    The other just thinks men's bathrooms are dirtier (which I don't think is true. Years ago I had a crappy job cleaning bathrooms, and they had about equal levels of messiness. Both bathrooms ended up with pee on the floor or toilet seats, women's restrooms would end up with menstrual blood all over. Somehow, it gets on the freaking stall doors. Really, public bathrooms are just gross in general).

    Nobody has expressed a fear of being raped or otherwise assaulted.

    Not a scientific study, but neither is saying "no woman i know wants to use the men's room."

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  42. wow this blog really brings out the worst in people like dirty dirty. well when i say people, i mean lesbians that noone likes, who in turn like noone and even hate each other. enjoy.

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  43. I think you have your language confused in the writing of this. A transwoman, is someone who transitioned from male to female. A transman, is someone who transitioned from female to male. I feel in general that you have your genders confused in a lot of what you are saying, as none of it makes a lot of sense.

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  44. I have to comment again, because I am so blown away by your ignorance. You have a lot of pent up hatred and aggression. Maybe you should go see a gender therapist, and work through some of your hatred for men. When you can get past your hatred, and find out that it stems from jealousy, then you will be able to accept your true FtM self, and realize how transition really is the answer for some people.

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  45. @11:19

    Who are you responding to? I have noticed some people using transman and transwoman incorrectly, but usually I figure it out by context, and I don't expect them to start using correct language when they can't even accept that we exist.

    But since I've made some recent posts, I want to make sure you're not replying to me. So I can clear up any confusion if you are.

    @ 11:31

    It is really not cool to tell someone who does not identify as trans that they are truly FtM. It's' just as ignorant and offensive as Dirt and other trans-deniers telling transmen that they're really women and transwomen that they're really men. I understand why you're upset, and I have traded angry words with Dirt and the others. But the problem with Dirt is that she doesn't respect our identities and our choices to transition. So it's not right for us to disrespect her identity and her lack of a desire to transition.

    I do think it's fair to hope that Dirt has a therapist that she works with, because I think everybody can benefit from therapy. And because, no matter how much I might disagree with someone, or how unkind they've been to my community, I just hope that they are keeping themselves healthy; mentally, emotionally and physically.

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  46. Yeah, you're right, it was ignorant and offensive of me to say that she identified that way. I just find it so offensive that a member of the LGBT* community can be so openly hating of transmen who choose to transition. No, it isn't for everyone. But neither is identifying as a butch female, and I know for a fact that's just not an option for most transmen I know. I watched this dirt persons youtube, and I agreed with some of what she said. Then I came here and I was just so overly offended. How dare she single us (transmen) out, and say that we are a product of a patriarchal society, or the male medical system. I have fought tooth and nail to be where I am, with no help from the medical system. The only thing I am a product of, is my own hard work and trueness to my own self.
    Also, I was in my first post addressing dirt, as a lot of the language she used was incorrect.

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  47. Hey guess what fellow trans people -- you don't get to police language or how people feel about, respond to and react to you.

    That's a big part of what helps to piss everyone else off.

    You can do you, but forcing the rest of the world to use certain words, terms, etc -- nope.

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  48. Okay then avid reader, I get that people will refer to us transfolk however they want, however it is not a bad thing to educate someone on the correct language, especially if that person wants to be respected for what they are saying. Whether or not I agree with what they are saying.
    I don't care about what "helps to piss everyone else off". Everyone else needs to mind their own business, and start being respectful. I guess we'd all still be running around using "The N Word" to describe African Americans, if language never changed. It's called education, and who is going to give it if we are too ashamed to stand up for ourselves?

    I for one have no problem misgendering someone on purpose, if they are doing it to spite me first.

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  49. @1:08

    I totally understand. It makes me angry and really sad.

    Oh good, I wanted to make sure I hadn't said something wrong on accident. I'm terrible and don't reread these comments before posting.

    Dirt does seem to get her terminology mixed up. Like I said, sometimes you have to figure it out from context.

    I haven't seen her youtube bideos. I'm very curious now.

    @avid reader

    We can't change how people feel about or react to us. But we do have a right to express our feelings about the matter. If other people can go around saying that we're victims of the patriarchy, that we don't exist, or that we're perverts, then we should be able to stand up for ourselves and say they're wrong.

    And it is up to us and our allies to help educate others about what being trans is, and how to be respectful of trans people. Another poster brough up "the N word." Do you think that black people don't have the right to tell people not to use that around them? If you do, at least you're consistant in your opinion. But it is an opinion.

    There will always be people who get angry when someone tries to educate them about how their language can be harmful/disrespectful. But we shouldn't stop trying just because of that. If we stopped trying to change things just because it pissed some people off, then the world would be pretty messed up.

    @3:31

    It's basically like responding to name-calling with more name-calling. Sure if someone calls you a stinky-face, you can call them a stinky-face back. But it would be more condusive to discussion, and just plain nicer, if we didn't go around misgendering people for the sake of just upsetting them.

    That's my opinion. And I'll continue sharing it. Of course, I don't believe I can force anyone to do anything.

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  50. @6:07

    You could say that they're "wrong", but they aren't "wrong", they're simply approaching things from a different angle. I agree with a lot of the general sentiment here, but not all of it. I have a brain, I can use it. Obviously not all transgender people are child molestors, and just because dirt dares to connect sexual deviancy with transgender people doesn't mean she calls ALL transgender people child molestors. Obviously.

    As far as educating people and being "respectful", are you joking? I can treat you with dignity as a human being, but if you believe you're a toaster, it's not on me to come on over and stick a slice of bread in your mouth. A lot of commenters on this blog disregard gender entirely -- making it impossible to "misgender" someone or to show them a lack of "respect" based on their "identity". No-one says you can't have your "identity", and sit at home all day popping bread into your own mouth, but tromping out into the world and telling everyone else they have to stick bread in your mouth because you "identify" as a toaster is a bit rich.

    Equating racism and "nigger" with anything to do with gender is asinine. Someone refering to you with "female pronouns" when you're a "transman" isn't harmful. If that's harmful, you have a problem -- it shouldn't take a ma'am to have your "identity" come crumbling down around your ears. Equating that to someone calling a black person a "nigger" makes me want to laugh until I vomit.

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  51. @ 7:20

    @7:20

    Of course people can have their opinions, but the trans-deniers do say a lot of things that are factually wrong. Like the idea that all male to female transexuals are sexual deviants. And Dirt does believe that all male to female transsexuals are sexual deviants.

    No I'm not joking. Asking people to use the correct pronoun is not unreasonable. Making up a story about a person who thinks they're a toaster... yeah, what the toaster-person wants is unreasonable. But that's just a bullshit story, not real life.

    No, equating racism to the belief that transgender people don't deserve to be treated with dignity is not asinine. Misgendering a person on purpose is meant to be hurtful. That's what we're talking about. People misgendering you on accident is entirely different. Go to a trans blog to talk about how those situations should be handled.

    I don't doubt that you have a brain, but instead of using it to read and critically review Dirt's blog and the comments here, you seem to just be skimming things and then trying to be offensive. Maybe you're just misunderstanding what people are actually saying? Or maybe you're a troll. It's hard to tell at this point.

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  52. @8:57

    Right, I don't agree, must be a troll. Classic boring internet logic. I suggest you become more familiar with what trolling actually is, lest you be surprised when you really see it for the first time!

    Let me make it really simple for you.

    You believe in a fantasy world of "gender". Asking people to use your "correct pronouns" forces other people to participate in your fantasy world. Toaster make more sense now? You can't force other people into your fantasy world, because you have to be aware of the actual reality where other people don't believe your fantasy.

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  53. "You can do you, but forcing the rest of the world to use certain words, terms, etc -- nope."

    I guess I can go around calling all butches "he" then, because that seems to me to be their gender.

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  54. I know it's off-topic, but I just wonder how many gay men are calling themselves "gender queer" these days (I'm not including FtMs.) Is it more of a Lesbian thing?
    Germany

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  55. @Germany

    The topic is getting kind of boring now anyway.

    That's an interesting question. I don't know if any kind of research has been done on that. All of the genderqueer people I personally know are bi (including myself). These are people who call themselves genderqueer, though just about any trans person could be labeled that by other folks, I think.

    That's just my personal experience I'm sharing there.

    -C

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  56. "I guess I can go around calling all butches "he" then, because that seems to me to be their gender."

    Whatever. The rest of us will continue to use he to refer to persons of the male sex. I mean, you can call all cats dogs if you like, but don't be surprised when others laugh at you.


    Unlike the trans delusionists, butches don't usually get that upset when 'mis-gendered', happens all the time, got worse things to worry about............

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  57. All I see when bad dyke posts anymore is "blah blah blah blah."

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  58. "All I see when bad dyke posts anymore is "blah blah blah blah.""

    Nice to see you're so open-minded and willing to listen.........

    But then again, you can't have true believers being open minded, cos they might CHANGE them........kind of like how you need to protect christians from the atheists.

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  59. BadDyke, you can't expect other people to listen to you when you don't listen to them, and you just keep repeating the same bullshit about "trans delusionists" over and over.

    I tried listening to you. I tried talking to you. All you do is keep telling us that trans people are ridiculous. There's no reason to listen to someone who's only intention is to spout insults. Listening to insults isn't open-mindedness.

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  60. This subject matter is PRECISELY what caused me to become anti-trans myself, and I thank you VERY MUCH for echoing my thoughts in this blog, “Dirt.” I knew I didn’t like what I was seeing/hearing on YouTube all those years ago (2007-2010), which is part of why I quit watching their boring videos and decided NOT to try to live as a “man” named “Cyrus” in real life, with or without the help of testosterone and/or chest surgery (never for once considered genital mutilation). I had, up until I watched certain videos in 2008, considered that I might want a deep voice like I’d dreamed of since I was 14 in 1997, as well as the flat chest I’d been missing since I was almost 10 in 1993. But at age 25, I became sickened by the misogyny I began to sense when watching FtM’s rant about womens’ rooms, but I just couldn’t articulate my thoughts like you do here.

    You see, in spite of the fact that I’ve had short hair since I was 10, at which time I also refused to wear dresses anymore, I still feel 100 times more comfortable in the ladies’ room and have NO “dysphoria” at all regarding my genitals. I have NEVER tried to pee standing-up, nor have I ever bought/made anything to help me do so. But my innocent virgin mind was scarred for life by the sight of FtM’s (with whom I’d previously identified and supported in their decision) showing us YouTubers their rubber penises into which they’d shoved baby medicine spoons cut-off and fused with clear tubing to redirect their urine, which I found utterly perverse! But the videos got even more sickening as they bashed womankind with stereotypes like, “Men only go in to piss or shit, whereas women just chat with random strangers,” and, “Men don’t care what you do, but women might call security,” and worst of all, “I would think that if you took a dump, a guy wouldn’t care, whereas a girl would say it stinks!”

    Excuse me?!? I don’t know about you, but I feel more comfortable sharing a bathroom with the sex that is NOT known for fetishizing everything about women – including our poop! I have NO PROBLEM WHAT-SO-EVER with peeing, pooping, farting, or changing my pad/tampon in the ladies’ room, because those are just natural things that ALL women know I have to do! The same cannot be said about the men’s room, because I would rather wear a diaper than to try to do my business there. I have NO PROBLEM with women “talking to me” or “asking what I’m doing” in the ladies’ room because I am read as female 100% of the time (because my bra size is like a 44 DDD and I’m just over 5’3”), therefore, I decided that “Mr. Cyrus” would just have to remain a figment of my imagination, or an “imaginary friend” I created when I was a kid but gave various names, as I continue to use the bathroom where I feel a sense of belonging despite whatever conversations I may hear between women and their kids/friends. I wish you'd make a blog entry about how FtM's probably leak urine allover themselves while trying to use their STP devices.

    Proud Butch Woman,
    Iris (which means "Goddess of the Rainbow" and I'd hate to part with it)

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