Change Your World-NOT your Body

Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Co-opting Lesbian

Is there a difference between straight women (radfem and otherwise) co-opting lesbian and men (trans and otherwise) co-opting lesbian? If yes, what is the difference?

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17 comments:

  1. Middle aged wealthy lesbian "radfem"s with a proclivity for twentysomething heteros troll radfem gatherings looking to convert and create pretend lesbians, and offering instruction. They are female.
    Hetero males troll for hetero women that will pretend to be lesbian.
    Hmm. Not much difference, except the first example contains two females.

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  2. Both groups appear obsessed with labels.

    Speaking of...

    I don't get the "political" part of 'political lesbians' if they're just saying it's possible for straight women to fall in love with and sexually/romantically desire another woman. That's called bi or getting on the road to lesbianism. What's "political" about that?

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  3. As a male to female transsexual I understand that my pressance in lesbian spaces is as a visitor.

    I am atracted to butch women but as I am MTF it can be complicated. Most butch women are lesbian and not bisexual. It requires a bisexual orientation to be attracted to a MTF who still has certain male parts.

    Straight women being pretend lesbians and demanding access to lesbian spaces is no differant than an MTF who insists she is lesbian and entitled to be in lesbian spaces.

    Transgender complicates things.

    IMHO straight women and 'lesbian' MTF have no buisness in lesbian spaces unless they have been specifically invited into such space. And in both cases they should remember they are in a place where they are visitors who should be on thier best behavior.

    Now when we get into FTM in lesbian spaces then I have to ask myself 'if you are a man, why are you in this lesbian space?'.

    (nope I do not buy into the party line on all things trans)

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  4. I guess a MtF would be appropriating both 'female' AND 'homosexual' whereas a straight/bi woman would only be appropriating 'homosexual'?

    Still its not right.

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  5. One is a disingenuous attempt to use desire for a political end. The other is about actual desire. I know which one I trust more.

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  6. "Now when we get into FTM in lesbian spaces then I have to ask myself 'if you are a man, why are you in this lesbian space?'.

    (nope I do not buy into the party line on all things trans)"

    Agreed, as an FTM I can't imagine myself being in a lesbian space (of course, excluding this blog, though I don't think I need to explain why I am here lol)
    Have never identified as lesbian or been interested in Lesbians but If FTM's are in lesbian spaces im going to take a stab in the dark n say they might have identified as lesbian in the past and are used to lesbian spaces or something along those lines.

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  7. The difference? There is none, and that's why it cracks me up to see political "lesbians" like Cathy Brennan being so down on MTF "lesbians". Pot, kettle?

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  8. The key here rests on what type of essentialism you adhere to.

    So, if you view being female as basic biology that is unchangable, but desire as NOT biologically determined, then political lesbianism makes sense.

    If you view both sex and sexuality as innate, the trans are trying to co-opt both, so double whammy there.

    So, assuming you don't accept the trans 'voice in the head' version of biological essentialism as trumping boring ole biology like sex chromosomes and secondary sexual characteristics......................

    WHY should you elevate essentialism as regards sexuality and sexual desire, when the biological/scientific basis for a genetic or innate component to lesbianism is nowhere near as strong.

    Is it REALLY that important to believe that there is a 'lesbian gene' (and along with that a straight woman gene presumably) in order to keep lesbianism safe? If we admit that sexual desire may be socially constructed just as gender is, does that REALLY mean that we are setting ourselves up for a program that would try to eliminate heterosexual desire? Is our only defence I was born this way, I can't help it, leave me alone..........................

    Are you REALLY so sure that your lesbian desire is really REAL and actual and legitimate in the sense that you could not have been otherwise?

    Let's face it, this is an EASY one actually. Sex, basic biology, is immutable. If you define women as female, than that is also unchangable, no males please.

    So, you could possibly be MISTAKEN about a male trans, and think they were female, but they will never actually be female.

    As regards lesbianiam, we have TWO criteria:

    1) You have to be female
    2) Desiring women/having sex with women/wanting to have sex with women (or loving women in some significant way) have to be in here as well.

    Straight women (if you insist on sexuality being immutable) at least meet the first criterion. Male trans 'lesbians' don't even get that far. And as regards the second -- how would YOU prove that your lesbianiam and lesbian desire was really real? Or at least more real that some supposed straight women who now says she is a lesbian?

    I don't think you CAN, in general. So, it's a good thing then that we're NOT basing our arguments against the trans agenda on that, although they ARE basing their arguments for.

    TO put it another way, what's MORE absurd or more challenging to lesbians? A male that insists he is female (biological impossibility), or a female who also insists that she exclusively loves women (and what she may or may not do in bed (or elsewhere) is none of your business)...........




    "Middle aged wealthy lesbian "radfem"s with a proclivity for twentysomething heteros troll radfem gatherings looking to convert and create pretend lesbians, and offering instruction." This is surely some sicko porny fantasy, and NOTHING to do with any lesbians or any radfems I have ever met. Insulting nonsense from yet another anon.

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  9. "Middle aged wealthy lesbian "radfem"s with a proclivity for twentysomething heteros troll radfem gatherings looking to convert and create pretend lesbians, and offering instruction."

    Did a male write this? Sounds like a sicko porn fantasy is exactly right @8:34. Never heard such nonsense!

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  10. I've never been het, but what I've seen of het culture scares me. It is rape culture.

    I have to respect people who resist it while still identifying as heterosexuals, but I can't exactly condemn people who run the hell away from it and identify as political lesbians or gays or queers.

    - Mary

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  11. "Is there a difference between straight women (radfem and otherwise) co-opting lesbian and men (trans and otherwise) co-opting lesbian? If yes, what is the difference?"

    I'm a lesbian, and I have no problem with my straight female friends. As to MTF transwomen, I will never forget the Cotton Ceiling Workshop and the Hole-y Army that shows up at Dyke Marches to push for trans inclusivity.

    Hole-y-Army...Yes, we understand completely..same misogynistic bullcrap.....different day...

    The fetish like fascination with vulvas and vaginas paraded around on sticks and poles should make all feminist wretch. The reason the Hole-y-Army deliberately shows up at Dyke Marches with their vulvas and vaginas on sticks is to intentionally intimidate lesbians. This is a concerted direct attack meant to dehumanize and psychologically break down lesbians. The female reproductive system is remarkable in its complexity, and to describe female reproductive organs as "holes" would never be tolerated coming from heterosexual men. However, when it's coming from transgender biological males at Dyke Marches, feminists never blink an eye.

    Sit back and magine this.

    What would happen if the "Hole-y-Army" and its collection of fetishized vaginas and vulvas on sticks showed up at a NOW (National Organization of Women) meeting and started to chant their little song,

    "My hole has lots of surprises
    Dykes come in all shapes and sizes
    We are the holey army
    We’re here, we’re holes, we’re fabulous please fuck with us"


    This wouldn't be tolerated, and I imagine jaws would drop because it would be so outlandish and sexist. Since they are transgender, or queer identified men and it's a Dyke March, some think it's revolutionary, edgy, and cute. All these males do is show up at Dyke Marches, nobody cares about dykes anyway, and lesbians need to learn to love penis whether they want it or not.

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  12. More on the Hole-y-Army..

    I have to admit that some of the "holes" are quite colorful, but they are still "holes". It's not the artwork if one wants to call it "artwork" that bothers me so much. It's what they do with these "holes", and how trans acitivists love to parade their "holes" on sticks at Dyke Marches. Where did transwomen and queer identified males get the idea for their "Hole-y-Army"? Female bodies are nothing more than holes for penetration by a penis with some kind of soft fur like sustance on the outside. Where have we seen this before? This comes directly from pornography and the sexual objectification of female bodies in which the female reproductive system is reduced to some sort of fetish. After these "holes" are made, they apparently are placed on long sticks or poles for the specific purpose of being paraded around at Dyke Marches. I'm sure transgender and queer identified men must take great delight at deeply offending all women, and especially lesbians.

    In the following article, this man definitely seems proud of his "hole" on a stick that he paraded around at the Toronto Dyke March.

    "Clearly I am not a lesbian. But when the opportunity to participate in the Toronto Dyke March was presented to Lisa and me this afternoon, we couldn’t resist. We were each handed a vagina, told to hold it high in the air and chant the following:

    "My hole has lots of surprises
    Dykes come in all shapes and sizes
    We are the holey army
    We’re here, we’re holes, we’re fabulous please fuck with us"

    http://francocignelli.com/2012/06/30/dyke-march/

    At the Peak Trans blog, one person said,

    "My peak trans moment was when I saw video of Coral Short’s “Hole-y Army” at the Dyke March in NYC. Parading replicas of women’s reproductive organs as ‘puppets’ on stakes and telling participants to chant ‘We’re here, we’re holes, we’re fabulous, come fuck with us.’ Calling women’s reproductive organs ‘holes’ and telling people to fuck with our ‘holes’ was supposed to be promoting trans inclusivity, because “GENDER > GENITALS”. No. We’re not holes. Our reproductive organs are not holes. You’re not allowed to fuck with us."

    http://peaktrans.tumblr.com/page/9

    I'm a female who happens to be lesbian. I am nothing more than a "hole" who needs a good fuck. This is the way my anatomy is described, and men dressed in drag need to parade it around atop a long pole. Why does this feel like rape to me, and why can't lesbians be safe at Dyke Marches? Perhaps by parading my "hole" around atop a long stick, men at Dyke Marches are symbolically taking possession of lesbians. This is clear and precise street theatre designed to intimidate lesbians. It's like reaching deep inside my lesbian soul, and ripping out my heart.

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  13. The “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Transwomen “ is something that I will never forgive. I mean ever. I’m not the only lesbian who feels this way. This workshop was held at Planned Parenthood of Toronto, and despite the fact that they knew it was offensive to lesbians, and women in general, they went ahead with this workshop Let’s review what the “cotton ceiling” means. Originally, as I understand it, a trans porn star co-opted the old feminist term “glass ceiling” and turned it around to mean lesbians who don’t want to have sex with transwomen. That is, lesbians might support male to female transsexuals politically, but have no desire for sex, and it stops there. Please look at the title of this workshop carefully. This workshop was for MAAB (Male Assigned At Birth) and transwomen. The issue was the “cotton ceiling” as in sexual access to lesbians, but lesbians weren’t even allowed in the front door. So, in discussing ways to “overcome “ and “break down sexual barriers” of lesbians, lesbians don’t even need to be present. The fact that this lesbian phobic workshop was held at Planned Parenthood of Toronto is very telling. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, never had a penis. Transwomen might need condoms if they still have their penis, but they don’t get pregnant. The fact that this misogynistic lesbian phobic workshop was held at Planned Parenthood of all places is another example of how transwomen will trample on lesbian dignity time and time again. Lesbians have always been told that we just need to love penis. Now, transwomen are doing the same thing.

    “Lesbians and Feminists object to the “Cotton Ceiling” metaphor as ahistorical and rape invoking. The metaphor cheapens the struggles of Females to shatter the glass ceiling in the workplace by suggesting that the right to sexual access to Females is on par with the struggle for equality in the workplace. The metaphor suggests that Females are a barrier to be broken, or that Females owe some obligation to “penetrate” the veil of Transgender Women’s underwear (God, I wish I was making this up). Lesbians and Feminists also object to the metaphor because it suggests that Lesbians (i.e., Female homosexuals) need to open themselves sexually to Transgender women in to demonstrate that we are “good” Transgender allies. Consequently, the metaphor dictates that Lesbians are bigots for not wanting to consider sex with male-bodied persons.”

    http://an-uncommon-scold.newsvine.com/_news/2012/04/03/11006655-transgenders-claim-cotton-ceiling-because-lesbians-wont-have-sex-with-them

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  14. "how would YOU prove that your lesbianiam and lesbian desire was really real? Or at least more real that some supposed straight women who now says she is a lesbian?"

    And before I forget, let's not get caught in the trans-speak 'identify as' cul-de-sac.

    You can 'identify as' a lesbian all you like, but if you're NOT female, or don't actually put women first and only when it comes to your emotional and/or sexual relationships, then that doesn't count either.

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  15. Trans women are adult females who transition.

    dirt

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  16. ...because they are men. Everyone knows that Trans 'feminists prefer to focus on bullying women than actually fighting the patriarchy: example:

    ***How MtF 'feminists' behave towards men who don't believe trans 'theory':
    "Neo-Nazis in SF (tw: transphobia, sexual harassment, racism, alcohol, victim blaming) (Please read if possible)
    diddlebot:
    Read More
    FUCK
    This past Tuesday I was at the Lucky Penny diner at Geary and Masonic with five friends around 8:30-9pm when at least 30 large white men with shaved heads and facial/ neck tattoos walk in and take all the tables around us.  They were loud and I didn’t catch much of what they said but they definitely were talking about us off and on.  We took off pretty quick.  Nothing apart from a few nasty comments and uncomfortable looks actually happened, but I was certainly pretty shaken up.
    Be careful, people." http://charthebutcher.tumblr.com/page/6

    ****How MtF 'feminists' behave towards women who don't believe trans 'theory:
    There are too many 'die in a fire' 'suck my dick' 'I'm gonna hunt you down and kill you' quotes to mention here. Google it!
    Clearly FtM;s don't notice 'gender' or sex, unless it's a man - and then they are happy to just run away! Go into a men's toilet and confront the patriarchy? NO! Go into the women's because you KNOW FULL WELL YOU ARE A MALE and you KNOW you are physically bigger. Go into the women's bathroom where you can bully them to your hearts content!!!! Yes please!
    It's funny how and when they 'remember' the differences between male and female BIOLOGY!!!

    In short, they are men. I DO NOT want to date a 'woman' who acts like this towards women!!! They are NOT feminists. They are bullies. The FtM's are following their lead, once they start injecting Testosterone. I don't want to date them either!

    Fight patriarchy NOT women!!! Go and talk to a man like you talk to feminists! You wouldn't dare!

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  17. hey dirt..long time no post...
    see you are still here fighting the fight...

    ReplyDelete

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