Change Your World-NOT your Body

Saturday, July 28, 2012

Transmen skirt Marriage Laws-How Gay and Lesbian Supportive!


While I dont object to these two trans females marrying, I do take issue with the constant harping by the trans politic when referring to the GlBT about "community", "community", "community". But tell me, where is the community when a sect of that community is using their special privileges to skirt laws that gays and lesbians have no recourse against? If we actually were a community, not one couple in that community would marry in states that ALL aspects of that community cannot partake in!

There are a small handful of states that are allowing men and women to merely pay a fee and file the proper papers in order to change their sex. The trans politic is fast at work to create similar laws in other states. In the states that already have such laws on the books and states that will, gays and lesbians need to  utilize this loophole so we too can marry if we so choose. One partner legally changes her sex to Male, that way her and her female partner can legally marry. And unlike states that gays and lesbians can marry but their marriage is illegal in most other states, as a male and female married couple ALL states would be LEGALLY bound to recognize that marriage!

Granted if a number of gays and lesbians took advantage of this loophole, the loophole would be quickly closed. Something for feminists/radfems to think about if we want to rebuild some of the structures that have been torn from the foundation of female. It may be a small step back for gays and lesbians, but it would be a Nijinskian leap for women!

dirt
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23 comments:

  1. Because you argue that we don't exist and suggest that we are prone to become rapists and child molesters, I feel quite pleased to have more rights than you. I feel entitled to them and am morally superior to you for the above stated reasons.

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  2. I think that transgender marriages can be the hammer by which the gay marriage wall can be breached.

    I am in a legaly heterosexual marriage. No matter how you slice it. MTF and a FTM.
    Yet my marriage has been chalenged a number of times by those who either saw us as a man and a man or a woman and a woman and it was a little dificult convincing some of them we were not a gay couple. It shouldn't matter who I marry so long as the person who is marrying me is willing to tolerate my crap.
    :)
    Before transition we never had to deal with such bigotry. I was pro gay marriage long before transition, but since transition I am very strongly in support. I a tired of my marriage being questioned because some people can not fathom that LGBT people should be allowed to get married.

    Trans marriages shines the light of the absurdity of marriage laws prohibiting gay marriage.
    If a trans MTF remains married and the mtf passes well, they look like a lesbian couple, and the marriage is legal in 50 states. If two trans want to marry each other and they are the same birth sex, then only one needs to change thier birth records and when they are married, legal in 50 states. Pretty much any a trans person wants to get married they can by either changeing or not changing their birth records depending on who they wish to "heterosexualy" marry. This trans loophole really serves to point out the entire absurdity of gay marriage bans.

    I say use the loop holes to your advantage if you can. The more trans folks that are married and visable the more likely that the foundation of marriage as socialy defined today can be dismantled.

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  3. I am trans and in a heterosexual marriage. It's legal because I changed my sex, and I do not feel that obligates me to support same sex marriage. I've gotten so much flack from gays and lesbians for being trans that I will never support gay rights. I think America agrees, because trans people are gaining rights in an increasing number of jurisdictions, but gay marriage loses every time it is put up to a vote by the people. Serves you all right for being so hateful to trans people.

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  4. although i understand that there are practical reasons to marry, especially since you Americans still don't have basic health care available in your country, i think it is important to hold no illusions about marriage being a progressive, good or feminist ideal.

    i do support gay marriage in our current social structure. up here in Canada it has been legal for a while and as a pagan, we were marrying (handfasting)gays decades ago. but i see this as an interim step only. what womyn really need is the abolition of all institutions which uphold the patriarchy and marriage is one of the primary institutions that does that. of course, this is really the case with heterosexual marriage not gay marriage. but emulating oppressive heterosexual institutions is not a long term solution to ending the oppression of gay people.

    i could see a transitional period, where ONLY gays are allowed to marry, being part of a plan working towards marriage abolition, but we must always remember the long-term goal should be abolition.

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  5. I couldnt agree more Cass. But I do see using these ignorant laws such as legally changing sex against idiotic law makers when we can.

    We (women) need to collectively legally change our sex in effort to thumb our nose at the hetero-patriarchal system AND force law makers to remove the legality of sex by replacing it as it should be, with the BIOLOGY of sex.

    dirt

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  6. "Because you argue that we don't exist and suggest that we are prone to become rapists and child molesters, I feel quite pleased to have more rights than you. I feel entitled to them and am morally superior to you for the above stated reasons."

    "I FEEL QUITE PLEASED TO HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN YOU."

    If a biological male said that he was entitled to more rights because HE is morally superior to a female, he would never hear the end of it. He would be called sexist for believing that he is entitled to more rights than a female. When a "transman" states this, he/she isn't sexist because "he" apparently believes he/she is entitled to special treatment.

    IF "TRANSMEN" ARE MEN, WHY ARE THEY EXEMPT FROM SELECTIVE SERVICE? PRETTY SWEET DEAL...YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE "MEN", BUT DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SELECTIVE SERVICE.

    "In the United States, almost all male citizens (as well as many male non-citizens living in the U.S.) who are between the ages of 18 and 25 are required by law to register with Selective Service. The purpose of the Selective Service agency is to provide manpower to the U.S. armed forces in an emergency by conducting a draft using a list of young men's names gathered through the registration process.

    Young men are required to register within 30 days of their 18th birthday. To be in full compliance with the law, a man turning 18 should register during the period of time beginning 30 days before until 30 days after his 18th birthday (a 60-day window). Late registrations are accepted, but not once a man reaches age 26. Men who do not register within the 60-day window are technically in violation of the law and should register as soon as possible.

    Selective Service and Trans Men:

    Broadly speaking, transsexuals (both female-to-male and male-to-female) are exempt from serving in the U.S. Armed Forces, and would thus most likely also be exempted from a draft should one be initiated."

    http://www.ftmguide.org/selectiveservice.html

    Some transsexuals have "transitionend" AFTER military service, but I can say with all certainty that the military is not going to administer testosterone to a "transman".

    "The repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT) means that gays and lesbians can serve openly in the military without fear of discharge. However, the ban on transgender service remains intact. Gender Identity Disorder (GID) is considered a mental disorder by the American Psychological Association, and the military considers it a medically disqualifying condition."

    http://outservemag.com/2012/01/the-new-dadt-the-militarys-ban-on-transgender-service/

    Would "transmen" shower with other female soldiers, or would they shower with male soldiers? Where would they sleep or change their clothes? Who is going to administer the routine testosterone shots? While many gay men and lesbians have served honorably, there are real reasons why the military would continue to bar transmen.

    "Transmen" ARE NOT MEN. They are just fake men, and without routine shots of testosterone will simply revert back to looking like the females that they really are. "Transmen" do not have a fully functioning penis. They can't father children. Transmen don't have to worry about military service.

    They have all the privileges of men, but none of the responsibilities. Sweet deal....

    Yes, you are sooo special. It amazes me. Now, go shoot up some more testosterone. Sorry, but fake men who happen to be more sexist than real men don't impress me at all. Real men with real penises are worthy of some respect, but I'm not sure about "transmen".

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  7. "I am trans and in a heterosexual marriage. It's legal because I changed my sex, and I do not feel that obligates me to support same sex marriage. I've gotten so much flack from gays and lesbians for being trans that I will never support gay rights. I think America agrees, because trans people are gaining rights in an increasing number of jurisdictions, but gay marriage loses every time it is put up to a vote by the people. Serves you all right for being so hateful to trans people."

    If you are trans, you are not heterosexual. I hate to tell you this, but it's only a facade. It's a farce, and the only reason you think you are heterosexual is because of the EXTERNAL source of hormones. One can never change his or her genes. It is never going to happen.

    "I am trans and in a heterosexual marriage. It's legal because I changed my sex, and I do not feel that obligates me to support same sex marriage."

    SOUNDS JUST LIKE IRAN TO ME. HECK, WHY DON'T YOU MOVE TO IRAN. THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT MIGHT PAY FOR HALF OF YOUR SEX REASSIGNMENT SURGERY.

    "Before the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the issue of transsexuality in Iran had never been officially addressed by the government. Beginning in the mid-1980s, however, transsexual individuals were officially recognized by the government and allowed to undergo sex reassignment surgery. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognised on the birth certificate."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

    "Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other country apart from Thailand after the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, spiritual leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution, issued a religious fatwa approving the practice, which has government funding. Critics have suggested that some of those changing sex are not true transsexuals but gays or lesbians who feel forced into the operation by social pressure."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/iran-transexual-marriage



    Homosexuality is punishable by death in Iran, but the goverment will help pay to fix its homosexuals through surgery. The outward appearance of homosexuality will not be tolerated. Indeed, the government states that there are no homosexuals in Iran. Finally, the truth is uncovered in a rather frank and candid manner. The act of "transitioning" is in many cases used as a means of social control, especially the erasing of gay and lesbian identity. Transmen and transwomen have their little picket fence, "heterosexual marriage", and outwardly appear "heterosexual" as a way to appear normal by society. As long as they aren't sissy fag boys or lesbian dykes, all is well and good.

    Hello Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini...

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  8. "this is really the case with heterosexual marriage not gay marriage. but emulating oppressive heterosexual institutions is not a long term solution to ending the oppression of gay people.

    i could see a transitional period, where ONLY gays are allowed to marry, being part of a plan working towards marriage abolition, but we must always remember the long-term goal should be abolition."

    I totally agree that marriage as an institution should be abolished in favor of something like domestic partnerships or a simple civil contract for ALL people over a certain age. That is, for all people who are not related by blood, and willingly choose to enter into such a contract. To me, this is the moral choice. Of course, if some people still choose to have some type of religious ceremony, this would be fine as long as it's not a requirement.

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  9. 7:22
    yes 'America' (or her most comservative residents) would much rather see women 'become' men (and men women) than deal with 'butch' females and 'sissy' males- I mean it's been the general line against dykes as long as I can remember 'you just want to be a man, have the surgery already' and such

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  10. If there has to be a draft, I believe females should be drafted, as well as transmen.

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  11. "If a biological male said that he was entitled to more rights because HE is morally superior to a female"

    Jeez, you're not very bright, are you. I am morally superior to Dirt because she suggests transmen are rapists and child molesters, whereas I would never suggest the same of lesbians even though, in fact, there have been many more cases of lesbian rape and lesbian sexual abuse of children than there have transmen. Dirt preys on an alarmist, reactionary response to transpeople and feeds into your existing inclination to judge and condemn us. By the way, you are a blowhard. You talk too much and don't make compelling arguments.

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  12. Real men with real penises are worthy of some respect, but I'm not sure about "transmen".

    Real men with real penises? How lovely for servicemen who have had their "real penises" blown off - nice to see you think they come back from action half a man. Lets not forget "real men" having their balls cut off from testicular cancer and needing to "shoot" testosterone because chemo has destroyed their hormones. These "real men" can have the lower surgeries that trans people can. Is a biological man not "whole" because he has had a pump fitted or even had a full phalloplasty?

    Leaving the trans issue aside, by your definition any man that doesn't have a "functioning penis" is not a "real man". So where do you draw the line between a biological man born with a penis/testicles that doesn't "work" and a biological man loses his penis/testicles later on?

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  13. I don't think the above comment is 'leaving the trans issue aside'
    (I also think the 'real men with real penises' comment was kind of stupid)
    'trans' people always use these kinds of arguments, like men who say they're women because even some real women can't give birth so therefore they're not any less female than them

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  14. Yes, I admit that this statement about real men with real penises was insensitive. I sincerely apologize for this.

    (1.) Genetically, FTMs are NOT male. People can never change their genes. It's horrible if any male has an injury to his groin area, or has cancer that renders him impotent.

    (2.) While the majority of genetic males do have a fully functioning penis, I'm sorry to say this, but FTMs as a distinct group of humans will NEVER have a fully functioning penis.

    (3.) Of course, males can injure any part of their anatomy, and it is certainly tragic. However, when this happens, he loses something that he was born with not something that was surgically created. I'm truly sorry, if this offends anyone.

    By the way, IF TRANSMEN ARE MALE, WHY ARE DO THEY GET OUT OF SIGNING UP WITH SELECTIVE SERVICE...

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  15. If you are too immature or too angry to conduct your comments with some maturity, do not comment.

    Second, ALL trans females are exempt from Selective Service. Trans males however MUST register and apply for exemption. There has been no mass political movement from trans females or trans males towards regarding military issues.

    dirt

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  16. Are you saying that MTF (male to female) transsexuals are exempt, but FTMs (female to male)must register and apply for an exemption? Because they legally change their sex to male, FTMs must register even though they know they are already exempt.

    I seriously doubt if any branch of the military wants to be responsible for routinely administering testosterone to female to male transssexuals. Or, house female to male transsexuals with male soldiers. For all practical purposes, it does appear that FTMs would be exempt. Still, they must register because they are legally male.

    Since this subject deals with the law, shouldn't all people who are legally male have the same responsibilties? This is why I brought up the subject of Selective Service. Whether one is anti-war or not, this is still a solemn duty and responsibility that transmen or FTMs as a distinct class of "males" are exempt from.

    As I understand it, a FTM transman (genetic female who “transitions”) can legally change her sex to male. So, on one hand the law says that these individuals are men. Then, on the other hand, the U.S. government and the U.S. military drops “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” allowing gays and lesbians to serve in the U.S, military, but it still bans transsexuals from serving. Without an external source of testosterone, FTM transsexuals lose male characteristics. The military would have to take on the task of providing routine doses of testosterone to transmen. Moreover, it would have to house these individuals with biological male soldiers. Transmen (genetic females who “transition”) would have to shower, dress, and sleep with male soldiers. Although they get their breasts removed and take testosterone, not all FTMs get bottom surgery, or surgery to create male appearing genitalia. There are real logistic and common sense reasons why the military would be reluctant to accept FTM transmen. Of course, some transsexuals have served and are to be commended, but this was BEFORE they transitioned. Now, to the crux of the issue. To me, it does appear as if transmen (genetic females who “transition”) who legally change their sex do, indeed, constitute a special class of males. There is simply no other way to explain the reality of what actually occurs. Unless he has a disability, in the U.S., males have to sign up for Selective Service. As a distinct class of citizens, this applies to all males. Based on the fact that “gender dysphoria” is still a psychiatric condition, transmen (genetic females who “transition) as a distinct group of individuals would be exempt from military service in the U.S. After all, any responsible physician isn’t going to remove both health breasts on a female and give her a prescription for testosterone without a medical reason. The reason given is “gender dyshporia”. Most biological males have a solemn duty and responsibility to sign up for Selective Service, but ALL FTMs are essentially exempt. If FTMs (genetic females who “transition”) can legally change their sex, then why don’t they have all the responsibilities of men? No matter how one looks at it, as a collective group of individuals, they do not have all the legal responsibilities of men.

    I'm sorry for bringing up this subject, but the topic was the legal system.

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  17. I’ve already apologized profusely for the “real men with real penises” statement. However, I really do believe that FTMs (female to male) transsexuals are not male, and therefore don’t have an actual penis. I know this might be a very sensitive subject to some, but this is what I believe.

    Because some men have had injuries to their reproductive system, does this mean FTMs (genetic females who “transition”) are exactly like biological males? For some reason, someone brought up the fact that some males have injuries to their penis, scrotum, or develop testicular cancer. This is proof that males and females are exactly alike. It’s truly a sad tragedy when any part of a male anatomy is injured, or any human undergoes trauma to his or her person, but is an injured male reproductive system exactly like being born with a female reproductive system? We are to believe that this is true. I’m not talking about intersex individuals who are an entirely different subject. As I understand it, the vast majority of FTM transmen are genetic females who were born as female children.

    Unless we plan on cloning humans, the male reproductive system like all male reproductive systems in primates fulfills a very important role in the reproduction of future generations. Of course, some males can’t father children for medical reasons, but NO FTM transman can ever produce sperm. Please show me one FTM transman who has produced sperm. Show me one FTM who has a prostate gland. The male reproductive system (penis, testicles, prostate) are actual organs. They are connected and have a purpose that has served human kind for millennium. I think any urologist would laugh at the statement that the male reproductive system is exactly like the female reproductive system.

    "Real men with real penises? How lovely for servicemen who have had their "real penises" blown off - nice to see you think they come back from action half a man. Lets not forget "real men" having their balls cut off from testicular cancer and needing to "shoot" testosterone because chemo has destroyed their hormones.
    These "real men" can have the lower surgeries that trans people can. Is a biological man not "whole" because he has had a pump fitted or even had a full phalloplasty?"

    "These "real men" can have the lower surgeries that trans people can."

    This statement is only partially true at best. This completely eliminates genetics, anatomy, and the endocrine system. Below is a link to a graph of the ENTIRE male reproductive system. Take note of how everything is connected together. Please tell me if a genetic female is born with any of these organs. Does a genetic female have a vas deferens, seminal vesicles, a prostate gland, or testes that produce sperm? A male might injure part of his reproductive system, but some of it might still function. A genetic female has no part of a male reproductive system to begin with. Reconstruction after trauma on a male is not exactly the same as never having any part of a male reproductive system from birth. Of course, some plastic reconstructive surgical techniques might be the same, but this is all.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Male_anatomy_en.svg

    Because I respect the male of the species, I pose this question. Do males who have had injury to part of their reproductive system have any interest or desire in being compared to female to male transsexuals? I don't assume that they do.

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  18. I don’t know why one individual mentioned males injured in war that have some sort of trauma to their penis, reproductive system, or nerve damage that makes having an erection difficult. Trauma of this sort is certainly a tragedy, but what does it have to do with FTMs? By the way, I NEVER said I think males who experienced this sort of trauma aren’t men. I said that FTMs don’t have an actual penis. Transmen brought this subject up, not me.

    Please note how the male reproductive system is all connected. FTMs are not born with any of these organs.

    Penis:

    This is the male organ used in sexual intercourse. It has three parts: the root, which attaches to the wall of the abdomen; the body, or shaft; and the glans, which is the cone-shaped part at the end of the penis. The glans, also called the head of the penis, is covered with a loose layer of skin called foreskin. This skin is sometimes removed in a procedure called circumcision. The opening of the urethra, the tube that transports semen and urine, is at the tip of the penis. The penis also contains a number of sensitive nerve endings. The body of the penis is cylindrical in shape and consists of three circular shaped chambers. These chambers are made up of special, sponge-like tissue. This tissue contains thousands of large spaces that fill with blood when the man is sexually aroused. As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for penetration during sexual intercourse. The skin of the penis is loose and elastic to accommodate changes in penis size during an erection.
    Semen, which contains sperm (reproductive cells), is expelled (ejaculated) through the end of the penis when the man reaches sexual climax (orgasm). When the penis is erect, the flow of urine is blocked from the urethra, allowing only semen to be ejaculated at orgasm.

    Scrotum:

    This is the loose pouch-like sac of skin that hangs behind and below the penis. It contains the testicles (also called testes), as well as many nerves and blood vessels. The scrotum acts as a "climate control system" for the testes. For normal sperm development, the testes must be at a temperature slightly cooler than body temperature. Special muscles in the wall of the scrotum allow it to contract and relax, moving the testicles closer to the body for warmth or farther away from the body to cool the temperature.

    Testicles (testes):

    These are oval organs about the size of large olives that lie in the scrotum, secured at either end by a structure called the spermatic cord. Most men have two testes. The testes are responsible for making testosterone, the primary male sex hormone, and for generating sperm. Within the testes are coiled masses of tubes called seminiferous tubules. These tubes are responsible for producing sperm cells.

    Epididymis:

    The epididymis is a long, coiled tube that rests on the backside of each testicle. It transports and stores sperm cells that are produced in the testes. It also is the job of the epididymis to bring the sperm to maturity, since the sperm that emerge from the testes are immature and incapable of fertilization. During sexual arousal, contractions force the sperm into the vas deferens.

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  19. Trans males ie biological males must register for the draft regardless of taking females synthetic hormones, mutilative surgeries or legal name/sex change.

    dirt

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  20. The topic is trans persons marrying in states that do not allow "gay marriage". Not war vets with warn torn peni. If you cannot stay on topic, again do not comment or let yourself be swayed from topic by red trans herrings!

    dirt

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  21. "The topic is trans persons marrying in states that do not allow "gay marriage"

    In my opinion, Thomas Beatie is a FTM who deliberately gamed the legal system for her own benefit. Since Thomas legally changed her sex to male, Thomas was allowed to marry a woman. The second after their marriage, they had more legal rights than the vast majority of gay men and lesbians in the U.S. Marriage comes with tax benefits and a whole host of governmental benefits. After legally changing her sex, “he” proceeding to give birth to three babies. Of course, men do not give birth, and Thomas is a FTM transman who, like millions of other women on the planet, got pregnant and bore three children. Since “he” deliberately kept his ovaries and uterus so “he” could get pregnant not once, not twice, but three times, why was Thomas allowed to legally change her sex? Perhaps humans who get pregnant three times really aren’t male after all. They should not be allowed to legally change their sex. In most states, and in many countries, gay men and lesbians can’t get legally married, thus denying them several legal, tax, and government benefits. However, FTMs can go out and get pregnant three times, four times, five times, or six times AFTER they legally change their sex. Is this sane, fair, or reasonable? In my opinion, this is a farce and it’s ludicrous on its face.

    I firmly believe that the institution of marriage should be abolished in favor of something like domestic partnerships for ALL people. In the meantime, FTMs (genetic females who “transition”) shouldn’t be allowed to legally change their gender. With transmen getting pregnant after they legally change their gender, it’s nothing but a joke.

    I'm very happy that Thomas and her three babies are healthy from what I've read, but I don't believe she is male.

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  22. This legality of sex nonsense needs to end period. There is no such animal as a "sex change". If changing how you look to feel better is the goal of transition, why the changing legal sex?

    dirt

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  23. I think it is a positive thing that trans people are able to legally marry.

    It is a positive aspect for a society to be more tolerant and accepting. Also there are many legal reasons why this is practical. e.g. child adoption laws, divorce laws etc.

    Some posters have questioned why trans people are able to gain their marriage rights directly. Perhaps it is due to the fact that transgenderism is recognized as a medical condition and has full legal recognition. In addition, individuals have to go through a lot of screening and tests before they can change their sex legally. Therefore legally many countries do not see trans people as being in the same situation as gay people.

    Just to be clear, I support gay marriage and gay rights. Whether I am straight or gay or trans would not change that. Some religious groups would obviously have problems with same sex marriage, but I personally do not see why gay couples cannot have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

    It is shameful that in this day and age we are still unable to secure equality for all. It is, however, wrong to blame transpeople for this lack in progress. The LGBT community needs to unite and keep pushing the frontier.

    I really hope countries like the US can make more progress in this area.

    ReplyDelete

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