Change Your World-NOT your Body

Sunday, June 17, 2012

Transmen, Testosterone and Sex with Men

From a popular trans bio-femalelist:
More talk of testosterone treatments altering trans bio-female lesbian behavior. This change in sexual behavior (diminishing sexual attractions to women, desiring sex/rough sex/BDSM sex with men), isnt merely creating a further identity crisis in trans bio-females, it is putting them on the fast track to HIV and other STDs. See further info below:

Some trans men who use testosterone have reported increased sex drive and increased interest in sex with non-trans men after beginning hormone use and have cited these factors as contributing to their willingness to take sexual risks (Clements et al., 1999). Previous studies have found that a majority of trans MSM have reported not using condoms consistently during receptive anal and/or vaginal sex with non-trans male partners (Clements-Nolle et al., 2001) and low rates of HIV testing and perception of risk (Kenagy, 2002; Namaste, 1999). In urban areas where HIV prevalence rates among non-trans MSM have been estimated to be 17–40% (Catania et al., 2001; Koblin et al., 2003; Schwarcz et al., 2007) and STI rates are increasing (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [CDC], 2008), trans MSM who engage in risky receptive anal and/or vaginal intercourse with non-trans MSM may be especially vulnerable to HIV and STI acquisition.

Interview participants elaborated on how they experienced their sexual orientation and whether or not that experience remained consistent throughout their transition. Many participants commented on the general sense in the community that many trans MSM experience a shift in their sexual orientation after initiating testosterone use.


One has to wonder what the male medical machine's response to this "risky" and potentially life threatening behavior created by testosterone treatment is? Crickets? If the supposed cure for body/gender dysphoria is dying from AIDS, is it really a cure?

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40 comments:

  1. I remember wayyy back when, when this blog used to be about a butch woman's perspective on BUTCH issues. Now...all it is is this filth...

    You've become obsessed. I could care less about half of the things you post anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "Previous studies have found that a majority of trans MSM have reported not using condoms"

    I got the impression that some trans who sleep with men are ashamed of using protection cus it reminds them of being female. I met a trans msm who was very promiscus and claimed in public it was the confidence boost T gave. In private this person told me 'you have to take risks if you want to be taken seriously on the gay scene.' I saw maybe one transitioner stay with the straight man she'd been with before transition. Its very rare that a man stays. From what I've seen female partners of transitioners stay longer. Maybe this is contributing to the desperation of trans msm to fit into the gay scene while trans who only sleep with women tend to hang round the lesbian community longer.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Wait.. so the "MMM" wants to transition lesbian females in to men to mask their Lesbianism (turn them heterosexual) but the T is making them like men so their just making gay men...
    Sounds Legit.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I am not sure where to exactly put this comment request. I was wondering if you can do a post on butch or as ome people call them stud lesbians having their kids call them "daddy".
    Also maybe what you think about the term "stud" as the new word for butch lesbians.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anon@6:35am,

    The homophobic MMM continues to believe, through transition they are heterosexualizing/normalizing lesbians.

    Because they still (after half a century) dont bother with/care to do any long term studies on how dangerous/deadly and unsuccessful T treatment is, they fail to know of the high percentage of trans bio-females whom become attracted to men.

    And many of those T treated females ashamedly lie about their T acquired hetero attractions, to both female partners (putting them as risks for HIV/STDS) and to their doctors.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anon@3am, This blog has never been specifically about Butch lesbians, perhaps you've confused it with something else.

    It has always been in one way or another about dismantling the GSJ, which does obviously benefit all Butches, both past, present and future.

    Because if we dont, and the GSJ continues to tighten and baby Butches are transitioned in their diapers, there will be no Butches in the very near future.

    But your short sightedness is clearly noted. Fortunately for the future of Butches, I am not.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anon@7:02am, I'll put it on my list. I know (through work) two dyke trainees, both with straight women with kids doing just that. And not surprisingly, one of these dykes has now declared she's a "transman".

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  8. There's not really any butches in my generation anyway. That's kind of an old trend that is dying off with older (40+) lesbians. I know tomboyish and andro lesbians, but not the hard Butch types anymore. Lesbians these days aren't against being attractive. the black lesbian community had studs, but in general butches are a dying breed from what I see.

    ReplyDelete
  9. As long as I'm alive, butch lesbians will never be a dying breed.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Yes, 'butch' is generally used for/by older white lesbians- I'm in my 30s and have never identified with that word, though I do wear primarily 'male' attire and have only ever been attracted to 'femme' women... I've just always considered myself androgynous. Never felt the need really to define or label. In a way it seems that labeling oneself and thus claiming membership in any kind of 'subculture' isn't especially progressive; transsexualism being an extreme example of limiting self-labeling. Blacks, hispanics, Asians seem to go for the 'stud' or 'ag' thing. Seems it's easy to slip into identifying as 'masculine of center' and then 'genderqueer' and then 'trans' once keen on groupthink...
    On the use of testosterone changing sexual orientation- I've seen it many many times. Looks like an indicator of one's personality indeed changing with hormones, not just one's externals.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Testosterone increases the sex drive in women. As I understand it, doctors have know this for some time. Women naturally have very small amounts of testosterone. So, these FTMs who are genetic females are putting the same amount of testosterone into their bodies as males naturally produce. What do people think is going to happen? We all know that most men will screw just about anything that walks. Let's be honest with ourselves and get real. Many lesbians don't want to have sex with FTMs because they aren't women, and most lesbians want the emotional committment. Straight women want a real man with a real penis. The only people left for FTMs to have all the unbridled, quickie, no strings attached, **ck them and leave them sex with is the gay men.

    These FTMs who engage in risky sex with gay men probably end up being permanent bottoms. The risk of HIV, hep B, hep C, and STDs is a real concern.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anon@11:09am, and what will happen when you are no longer alive?

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  13. JB, seems you have a diaphanous post modern queered notion of Butch.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  14. nope- i'm also not for the 'queer' label and of course not the 'trans' label! think that adhering to any stereotyped subculture's 'rules' can only be trapping, saying that 'i'm a butch so i'm only permitted to behave in ways a, b, and c.' isn't much different to me than 'i'm female and can only do x. y. and z...' you may fit into the role perfectly but not all dykes do!

    ReplyDelete
  15. & my heroes when first coming out were people like vita and violet and radcliffe and hd and garbo and mercedes etc... why get stuck on lesbian style and behavior that took root in the 50's-70's? seems a bit stagnant and our history is so much richer and more romantic...
    i only reluctantly call myself androgynous since it's technically true- people sometimes don't know 'what i am'

    ReplyDelete
  16. Labels are merely identifiers. I freely say I'm a woman(which I am), that in no way, shape or form limits my world or myself in it, unless I were to ignorantly ascribe to the limits put on "woman" by patriarchy and misogyny.

    Which I of course do not.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  17. "I know tomboyish and andro lesbians, but not the hard Butch types anymore. Lesbians these days aren't against being attractive."

    I'm kind of soft butch/andro as you describe, and I'm not really into labels either, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "Lesbians these days aren't against being attracitve." Who says butch lesbians aren't attractive? So, lesbians have to wear skirts and lipstick to be attractive? I wear ladies dress slacks and a blouse when I work, but men's shirts and jeans when I'm at home.

    Again, I'm not into labels either and I'm kind of andro, but I trust most butch lesbians more than a lot of the back stabbing super femme lipstick lesbians I've known. Butch lesbians have kept lesbian identity alive for decades. I think it's time to stop dumping on butch lesbians.

    ReplyDelete
  18. There are more transmen (FTMs) that are into gay guys than people think. When you sit down and think about it, how many straight men would want to sleep with a FTM? That would be way too much for the average six pack heterosexual man to handle. That is, unless he unless he hadn't had sex in years, and Mr./Ms. transguy is the only person for miles around. Now, it seems as if some of the transmen call themselves "gay" which is kind of amusing in a sad and pathetic sort of way. These are biological women who underwent "transitioning" (removal of both healthy breasts, testosterone) and now some of them are into the gay guys.

    "I saw maybe one transitioner stay with the straight man she'd been with before transition."

    What exactly does "transition" mean? It's just a biological female who gets both her breasts removed and takes testosterone. To me, this is just a woman who still likes men. There is nothing wrong with this if that is what people really want, but let's call it what it is.

    As to FTMs who are "gay" and into gay men, there is a real risk of HIV.

    The people who don't like Dirt's blog, seem to really be into "gay" FTMs.
    http://dirtywhiteboi67.com/

    "There are more gay FTMs than you probably think. I personally know over 100 gay FTMs, the majority who are already on hormone replacement therapy and many who have had transition related surgeries."

    I don't have anything against gay guys (biological dudes with a penis). I just don't want HIV in the lesbian community because some "gay" FTMs can't leave the gay dudes with real penises alone.

    ReplyDelete
  19. In trolling the internet for FTM “gays” who are into men, it didn’t take much searching before I found several sites.

    “Don't worry – in the past years, the protocol for a FTM was a butch lesbian identification as a woman and a straight male identification as a man. Thankfully, we have progressed past that generalization. I grew up liking men, and idolizing them on top of that, and I still like the idea of being a man with a man. I don't like the idea of being a woman with anyone. I have mostly been with women, though. I find myself attracted to them, but on an individual basis, whereas with men it's more... Widespread. I guess I can love anyone, anyone at all, but I always found myself most attracted to men. It doesn't matter much to me anymore, though.

    I am pre-T and pre-everything, but right now I just live as... Me. I don't identify as lesbian, or a straight woman, either. I identify mostly as a gay male, but a bisexual...pansexual male above all. I assume it will be just the same when I start physical transition”
    http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=61516.0

    Notice that she “grew up liking men, and idolizing them on top of that”. In this post, idolizing women, or even admiring women is never mentioned.

    ReplyDelete
  20. More "Gay" FTMs

    "Here's my situation, I guess:
    I'd say I'm definitely most attracted to men, but it's weird when I'm in public looking male (I'm at a crossroads right now), I find myself thinking of girls having the impression that I might be attracted to them, even though I'm not really attracted to women.... if that makes any sense. I also think it would have been nice to be a father, or have a female partner, but not really in a sexual or even romantic sense . Well, to sum it up, I think in my case my dysphoria has caused me to almost be repulsed by the female body and female sexuality, so any chance of me being more attracted to them has flown out the window, so long as my body stays the way it is (pre-everything).

    “I think in my case my dysphoria has caused me to almost be repulsed by the female body and female sexuality.“

    Isn’t it sad when women are repulsed by their own female bodies?

    ”While I don't have any personal stories I can share, I do have a couple of transguy friends who have dated guys before. One of them regularly cruises gay guys and hooks up with them in gay bars as stealth, and just doesn't recieve anything from them, but he had a serious relationship with a gay guy right after his own transition. He has told me that there aren't any hard and fast rules - even bi guys aren't garunteed to be more open to the idea of FTMs. Some gay guys don't care, some find it a huge turn off, and some find it to be hot as hell - he stresses that it's totally a person by person basis. There are a couple of trends he's found though - first, most guys that actively fantasize about ftms are exclusive tops, so if you're pursuing a top as an exclusive bottom, you'll have a better chance of landing a guy that doesn't just accept that you are trans, but is REALLY into it. He's also said that the bears seem to LOVE transmen (and vice versa as well), and he's had a lot of luck in the leather community.

    Another tip I got from one of my other trans friends is to become active in the play and poly community - there are play parties held across the country that are usually specified as trans positive that are also attended by queer cisgendered men and women. “

    This is my suggestion:

    If FTMs cruise gay bars, and are into the play and poly community, please stay out of the lesbian community because we don’t want HIV or other diseases.

    “Most guys who actively fantasize about ftms are exclusive tops.” Bottoms in BDSM are subjected to all types of abuse. The life of a bottom in BDSM play scenes can be short and brutal.
    http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9055

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous said:

    "There's not really any butches in my generation anyway. That's kind of an old trend that is dying off with older (40+) lesbians. I know tomboyish and andro lesbians, but not the hard Butch types anymore. Lesbians these days aren't against being attractive"

    You're right in one thing... butches do seem to be a dying breed. I am 41 and have always been attracted to butch women but they seem a lot harder to find these days.

    As for your second comment, attractive? Who are you to judge what is or is not attractive? I happen to find butch women extremely attractive and I find it very narrow minded and ignorant to presume that butches are disappearing because lesbians wants to fall into some societally constructed, patriarchal version of "attractive."

    ReplyDelete
  22. We're hardly a dying breed IG. Most, along with Femmes have sadly reverted back to old ways of keeping company.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  23. Dirt, maybe its because I don't know where to find y'all. Looking forward to Michigan this August and hoping to see lots and lots of great women of all sorts.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anon@8:44, The misogyny in that post is horrendous! But when I was growing up, male stars/singers ect were also those I wanted to be like/emulate. It wasnt till I matured, and filtered those early feelings through feminism that I realized, this was because there were no visible women I could admire. All visible women subjugated themselves to men/the male gaze.

    Well, save two: Cleo Jones and Christie Love. Both black women. Because in white racist america on the 70's, black women were allowed to be more that fuck objects for the male gaze. They could be strong, tough and intelligent, all with benefit of a man.

    Sadly, today black women too, no longer have that luxury.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  25. Like I said IG, many Butches and Femmes have retreated and choose to commingle in the privacy of their own homes. While I dont agree with separatism, I can understand the need amid the misogynistic queer alphabet soup.

    Deplorably, Butch Invisibility still reigns supreme. We're too big a threat to all patriarchy clutches dear.

    dirt

    ps Femmes (true Femmes) are equally difficult to find and seemingly in short supply. And you might nearly as well forget about it if you add "intelligent" in front of true Femme.

    ReplyDelete
  26. My take on it is that for these transmen, sex with a gay man is after all the ultimate validation of their supposed maleness.

    So, a transman with a woman, can just get labelled as a lesbian couple playing pretend.

    So, trying to get accepted as a gay man, just running as far from femaleness as you can.

    Better be ANYTHING other than a woman, and even being with another women seems to be too much woman for some transmen.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do you think this is why many Transmen become attracted to "other" Transmen??.This puzzles me.. I was told by a Transman,that its different,, because it's a "Kinship;I believe its just exploring their sexual'curiosty..Any Feedback?

      Delete
  27. Most of the trans people I've come across online have been abused.

    So may I notice a pattern here:
    1) A girl is abused in her childhood, usually by a man. A terrible and tragic thing that shouldn't have never happened.
    2) The girl doesn't get help she needs
    3) In her teenage years she experiences body dysphoria and psychological problems; considering abuse, i believe this is not surprising
    (She also shows some really unusual characteristics for female population: liking sports, dislike for feminine clothes...short hair? more guy friends than girl friends?)
    4) Instead of proper psychological help, she get 'T' and 'top surgery'
    ...
    now, I can't predict future but
    ...
    5) she continues to have severe psychological issues even though she 'completes' transition (because it can never be really completed, esp. for born females)
    6)she also has other health issues

    and that therapy she gets focuses on her gender identity disorder,instead of what caused it or what might have caused it.
    let's deal with symptoms, but not look for a cause.
    and abused becoming abusers themselves, is sad, but nothing we didn't already know.
    all signs of serious mental issues.

    for all of those who do not have problems, who are simply following the trend - fuckin idiots & cowards.

    and all of those with female genitalia calling themselves genderqueer and whatnot, they're simply cowards.
    you're just a stupid fuck who doesn't have enough COURAGE to be a woman! And an uneducated fuck as well.

    Let me just notice something else -
    most of these kids are white and appear to be middle class.
    Talk about privilege.

    This trend is dangerous for all women, but lesbians especially.

    Thank you.You are doing a very important thing.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @BD, Most of these girls have little to no experience in the gay community, let alone gay male culture. If they did they would know some gay guy having sex with them isnt an affirmation of their "manliness" anymore than it is for the countless faghags that gay men routinely fuck.

    A warm hole, is a warm hole, is a warm hole to a hard cock.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anon11:25am,

    Thank you for your comment.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  30. This is all very well, but ultimately it ignores those who transition later in life while in a long-term stable relationship, of which there are many. You're not going to come across as many blogs and accounts of these people as you do from the younger generation since the majority of causal internet users leans toward people who are in their mid-20s and younger and are more likely to fuck about anyway. Does it really matter if you're trans when it comes to practicing safe sex? I'm sure alcohol and recreational drugs play a much larger part in the spread of STDs than a single one distributed through controlled medical conditions.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Age doesnt play into the heterosexual behavior of trans bio-females. Doesnt matter when they begin testosterone, it affects females similarly and dangerously. Because as you said, these women usually are in long term relationships with women, women they bring home HIV/STDs too after their encounters with men.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  32. "usually"? I did not say that these people were "usually" in relationships with women. There are many people born-male who transition and stay with their female partners, just as there are people born-female who stay with their male partners. And if age isn't a factor in any sexual behaviour, why are you obsessed with highlighting the very young who are transitioning? You're making out as though being transgender is a trend - a phrase you are keen on using - but the fact remains that there are probably tens of thousands of older people who have quite happily transitioned but keep their head down and get on with life i.e. don't post their business on the internet or take part in medical surveys so as to contribute to the statistics which you are so fond of quoting. Generally, as with lesbians, information regarding behaviour/opinions is only gathered from people who are in some sort of "community", whether it is for transgender people or homosexual men and women. Not in the community? Don't hang around with other trans people/lesbians? Well you're not going to count, and that's fine for a lot of people. The only people who can contribute to statistics are those who aware they are being asked something to begin with.

    It's also nice to see you completely dodged the recreational drugs and alcohol point. Oh, and insinuating that as soon as you're pumped full of testosterone, you're going to go out on the prowl for an AIDS-riddled gay man to have unprotected sex with, with absolutely no regard for your relationship. Which I'm sure says a lot more about the state of your morals than it ever will about your sexuality.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Wow, a nerve has been hit.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  34. I don’t know why people get so upset when anyone brings up the fact that an increasing number of FTMs deliberately choose to have sex with gay or bisexual men. This wasn’t true twenty years ago, but this definitely is occurring now. So, we shouldn’t pretend that it doesn’t exist. Indeed, some FTMs such as Buck Angel, the FTM porn star, get paid for doing biological males. Simple google “FTM” and gay. If you really want to see FTMs and gay guy action, just google “Buck Angel”. That is, if the unspeakable and horrific misogyny doesn’t make you wretch. Or, perhaps people should not turn away from the ugly truth no matter how unpleasant. After all, this is happening to young women. To me, young women do matter. While much maligned and reviled, Dirt stares straight into the face of internalized misogyny on a level unimaginable, a horrific level that words simply can’t describe.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Below is a safe sex book for FTMs and the men who love them. WARMING, IT IS QUITE SEXUALLY GRAPHIC. In reality, it sounds exactly like a safe sex booklet for gay men in that it has tips for staying safe while cruising.

    “Cruising can be a great way to hook up for casual sex. Still, every time you cruise you face a variety of outcomes: the chance of a good time, great sex, bad sex and everything in between…Some transmen who cruise decide not to disclose that they are trans. It is easy to give a blow job in a park and still pass. It is okay to decide ahead of time what you want to do and to stick to that in the moment. Sometimes, this can mean we lose a sexual opportunity because a guy wants something we are not prepared to do. Remember, there is always another guy coming along shortly and he may be into the same things you are! Be clear that you want safer sex and be prepared to assert that when you get together with your hook up. Some guys will say they are into safer sex and then when they get together will try to have unsafe sex. This may be particularly true if the guy you are with believes that trans guys are much less likely to have HIV. Know that guys with HIV will not necessarily disclose their HIV status.”
    (source: http://ebookbrowse.com/guide-safe-sex-ftm-gay-pdf-d328269324)

    It’s a good thing that they tell FTMs to always use condoms when they cruise in parks, etc. I have a radical idea. Why not stay out of parks and stop cruising? I guess that would take all the fun out of it.

    How did we get to this Orwellian, misogynistic point in time? To me, it’s kind of like a ghoulish nightmare. Young biological females chemically and surgically mutilate their bodies to erase and scrape away their female identity. Because they are so repulsed by the female body, they read booklets on how to cruise for gay men in parks and back alleys? These are genetic females who appear to have no connection whatsoever with their female self. They don’t even know how to react to women in an intimate sexual manner. One woman states, “I'm romantically, erotically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually attracted to gay men and gay-male culture.” Although every cell in their body carries an XY chromosome, they are repulsed by women’s bodies.
    This is the complete and total annihilation of female identity in all its forms. Perhaps it’s time to call this madness what it really is. It’s internalized misogyny on a scale unimaginable. It’s a cross between the “Handmaiden’s Tale” and George Orwell’s 1984. This is happening to a whole generation of young women, and no one seems to care, and the old feminists have essentially been silenced by the trans activists. Young women surgically mutilate their exquisitely beautiful female bodies because the female is so devalued. They turn to gay men because to intimately touch another woman means touching on a deep spiritual and emotional level the beauty and power of the female sexual response. They idolize everything that is male to the point of becoming male, then cruise for gay men in parks. Deeply honoring women is so utterly foreign to this lost generation of genetic females. Perhaps, just perhaps we are living in one of the most misogynistic periods in the last half century or so, and we can’t ever see ourselves for the people we have become.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "There are many people born-male who transition and stay with their female partners, just as there are people born-female who stay with their male partners."

    I don't understand these sentences. Perhaps there are "born-male who transition who stay with their female partners." Yes, this does seem reasonable. Now, let's talk about transitioning. How did this word ever come about? For example, what does "born-male who transitions" mean? Does this mean genetic females who are born as little girls from a female body who later surgically and/or chemically alter their bodies? Of course, their DNA is never changed, and they have to take testosterone for the rest of their lives. Isn't "transition" as it relates to FTM just another way of saying (1.) elective masectomies in healthy young women, (2.) a life time committment to testosterone, (3.) and the possibility of genital mutilation?

    "And if age isn't a factor in any sexual behaviour, why are you obsessed with highlighting the very young who are transitioning?"

    It's interesting that this person says, "the very young who are transitioning". When I watch the Washington Post video about the "transgender" five year old little girl whose parents already refer to as "he" it is so sad that I almost want to cry. Kids are slapped with a label of "gender dysphoria" at much earlier ages. Are five year old kids really transgender? When I look at the young faces of the twelve and thirteen year old kids at Trans Kids Purple Rainbow, it's so shocking to me. With puberty suppressing drugs, "gender dysphoric" kids don't even go through normal adolescent puberty. If cross gender hormomes are given immediately after puberty suppressing drugs, future fertility can be compromised. Some consider the sterilization of children as a potential human rights issue.

    ReplyDelete
  37. I hope someone injects you with testosterone and you turn into a bottom fag and have an asshole like a mason jar and die of AIDS. LOL

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anon,

    Not having ever been deluded enough to swallow trans propaganda, that will never happen to me. But feel free to "wish" in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete

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