Change Your World-NOT your Body

Monday, February 13, 2012

Transmen and the Male Brain

If you are a transman and truly believe you are born in the wrong body, would you be willing to finding out truly, if you have a "male brain"? Looking for at least 200 participants. Answer only if you seriously are interested in taking part of a university medical study which will prove 100% with out a doubt whether your brain is male and you are not merely suffering from a mental disorder.

dirt
Share:

42 comments:

  1. do you mean FMRI tests?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Is it able to be done online? Because I would be willing to participate :)

    ReplyDelete
  3. Brain biopsy which would then be DNA tested for brain sex. An hour or so procedure, miner soreness/a few stitches at location and stitches removed in 5-7 days. Very simple.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  4. I would, but unless the university has satelite sites all over the country, it will be difficult to get a representative sample.

    ReplyDelete
  5. But then again, this isn't a real study, is it?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Meaning Leo knows she wouldnt dare because she herself doesnt believe she has a "male" brain.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  7. Sounds very tempting but I'm not a US-citizen :/

    ReplyDelete
  8. I've never claimed to have a male brain. And I think it would be a waste of time because a) I have little doubt that my sex chromosomes are xx, and b) I don't care.

    ReplyDelete
  9. please provide any links to this study. dna does not cary gender, except karyotype. also dna can be extracted from any cell, no need to cut brains open.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I'm trying to get a ballpark figure of those truly interested who read this blog. Will release info in the near future depending on counts.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  11. THIS IS NOT A REAL STUDY!!!!!! No scientist or doctor in their right mind would actually believe that a person has different dna or sex chromosomes in their brain than in the rest of their body!!

    ReplyDelete
  12. A DNA test on a brain biopsy would be fruitless only testing one's biological sex. There are certain areas of the brain as a whole that are different in males and females and these are much bettered measured using a fMRI scan.

    But these tests have already been done and have been conclusive, here are some reports:
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html
    http://mindhacks.com/2009/04/05/imaging-the-transgendered-brain/

    ReplyDelete
  13. If there were such a test and they conclusively proved without any doubt that some Trans have cross-sexed brains would you change the focus of your blog.

    As a transsexual, I would jump at such a test. If it came out positive, I could point to the results and maybe convince my family. If it came up negative...I would go into extensive therapy and try to repair the psychological damage that caused me to feel Trans.

    Personally, I do believe that there are Tran’s folks who are certainly living with a cross sexed brain. However, I will freely admit that there are a number of young 'transsexuals' that show up to the support group that I wonder if they are not just damaged and not Trans.
    Like the person who is obviously male to female who likes to talk about the sexual fetish aspects of their transition or the young FTM that has not even started to deal with life, how does the kid think they can even grasp whether their gender is innate or a complete social fabrication. (I would wager 10% innate and 90% social fabrication.)

    We really could use such a test as a diagnostic. I think it could save allot of heart ache for those people who are not really trans but just dealing with some rough spots that have confused them.

    Signed,
    Someone over there.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I don't claim to have a male brain or have been "born in the wrong body" etc. I don't feel I need to justify my transition.

    I'm simply more comfortable presenting as male, being acknowledged as male by society. It is easier and better for me than being treated like a female. That may not be true of everyone.

    I would do the study just to see, but it wouldn't change my mind about my decision to transition.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "But these tests have already been done and have been conclusive.."

    Wrong. I've looked at the VBM (voxel based morphometry) and DTI (diffusion tensor imaging) papers in great detail, and as I recall, the stats are ridiculously low, the methods are suspect (like using the same set to train your classifier as you use to TEST it), and at the end of the day, just says that for trans people tested, the results for SOME brain areas tended to be a bit more one side than the other -- but since what we have for males and females anyway is two overlapping distributions, these tests aren't in any way diagnostic.

    Nor does it address the question (given brain plasticity), as to whether brain wiring differences, in effect are the CAUSE of the trans experience, or a consequence of it.

    So, from New Scientist:
    "the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females."

    SMALL numbers people. 19 females supposed to encapsulate the whole of variation in the non-trans population?

    And:
    "Guillamon isn't sure whether the four regions are at all associated with notions of gender,..."

    "It is easier and better for me than being treated like a female. " Yep, I'm sure MANY women reading this would say the same, we'd rather be treated like a HUMAN BEING (i.e. male), than the crap we get as females........Just not desperate enough to dress up in meat suits to obtain it.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I would love to see references to these papers.
    The numbers are small because the number of transgenders is small.

    ReplyDelete
  17. what meat suit is bad dyke talking about?

    I appreciate that her posts are at least rational, but that doesn't make any sense.

    Do you know how good it feels to look in the mirror and see the boyish face and square jawline, and broad shoulders I always wanted? To hear my warm, resonant voice? To have both women and men respond to me the way I have always wanted?

    You always reference that transition isn't about the one person, but it absolutely IS about me and how I feel now. That doesn't sabotage feminism and/or your personal struggle with the patriarchy.
    It just makes me happier. Try to relax about how other people live their lives.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "I would love to see references to these papers.
    The numbers are small because the number of transgenders is small."

    The small numbers show that the results should be taken with a pinch of salt -- do you REALLY want to base conclusions about men/women/trans on a sample that uses fewer people than were in your whole class at school?

    The references are easy to find:

    Giuseppina Rametti, Beatriz Carrillo, Esther Gómez-Gil, Carme Junque, Leire Zubiarre-Elorza, Santiago Segovia, Ángel Gomez, Antonio Guillamon, The microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A DTI study, Journal of Psychiatric Research, Volume 45, Issue 7, July 2011, Pages 949-954, ISSN 0022-3956, 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007.
    (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610003250)

    Just need to follow the link to New Scientist.

    This is also an interested overview by Anne Lawrence, and some interesting other papers on her website:

    http://www.annelawrence.com/

    The more you READ, the more you realise that the case isn't as clear-cut as the trans lobby would have you believe.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "what meat suit is bad dyke talking about?" Surgical and hormonal cosmetics, just a turn of phrase I liked.

    Yeah, yeah, people treat you better now, lucky you.

    It ISN'T about you, it's about the way all men and women get treated in our society, so much so that some people want to swap from one to the other.

    "Do you know how good it feels to look in the mirror and see the boyish face and square jawline, and broad shoulders I always wanted?"

    It's about WHY you wanted that in the first place. WHY does 'boyish face' carry such social significance, ditto square jawline or broad shoulders..........

    "Try to relax about how other people live their lives." It's NOT ABOUT YOU, it's about the ideas around gender that lead to people wanting such things. I'm not just trying to rain on your parade, I'm trying to get at ideas around gender that cause a lot of suffering to women in this society. Faced with that, being asked to 'relax' about how others (who have jumped ship as regards the female gender) live their lives is frankly rather insulting.

    "but it absolutely IS about me and how I feel now." A total failure to acknowledge that what we want, and how we feel, can't be totally divorced from society in this way -- and that goes for ANYONE, not just trans people.

    Common trans trope -- social conditioning and society as a whole had no effect on what I want, I just prefer broad shoulders/boyish face/a beard/square jaw etc etc.

    ReplyDelete
  20. And here's an interesting comment on the fMRI pheromomes experiment:

    http://sillyolme.wordpress.com/tag/pheromones/

    References at the bottom.

    Ditto here:
    http://sillyolme.wordpress.com/category/brain-sex/

    Site claims to be written by a M2T, but one who seems to know a bit more about the science than most, or at least gives proper references....................

    ReplyDelete
  21. Each brain cell is made up of DNA, so testing a sample of brain cells is hardly irrefutable and will once and for all put an end to the "born in the wrong body" nonsense that is used to determine the trans disorder. Once we remove biology from the equation, we can FINALLY start treating people for the how and why they developed this disorder in the first place, sans dangerous drugs and mutilative surgeries!

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  22. Dirt,
    you are taking those phrases too literally. when someone says they "have a male brain" or "born in the wrong body" they aren't saying that they believe their brain has xy chromosomes, while the rest of their body has xx. no one is saying that, to take it that way, just makes you sound crazy.

    ReplyDelete
  23. id be up for it because i had ambiguous genitalia and some undesired surgeries when i was a kid. however, id prefer not to have a brain sample if we are just looking at chromosomes. i do feel that testosterone changed my analytic/emotional ratio so i wouldnt be surprised if it changes the brain. i fully support people's desire to transition no matter their chromosomes.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "no one is saying that, to take it that way, just makes you sound crazy"

    What other way is there?

    Forgive me for being simplistic but I'm bang on average male height. 5.5 inches taller than the average UK woman according to wiki. Does that make me male in any way?

    This is where the brain sex thing confuses me because why can't a female have a brain shape which is statistically more common in males, whilst still being 100% female?

    ReplyDelete
  25. A female CAN have a brain that is closer to a typical male brain and still be 100% female. But the main point we disagree on is biology vs. destiny, dirt and those that agree with her think that they are one and the same, I don't. Our choices make us who we are, not our biology. I will never say that my body is 100% male, or that my brain is.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Thats cuz you're a woman leo.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  27. I am female, but certainly not a woman. And even if I were, it wouldn't matter. I would still take hormones, still grow a beard, and still be perceived as a man by the public, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks. And that's fine by me.

    ReplyDelete
  28. If you are an adult female, you are a woman. Adult female is all that "woman" means, period.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  29. Ok, fine, so what? It doesn't change how I feel, what I think, my choices, or the fact that everyone who meets me thinks otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that I like myself now more than I ever did before I started taking hormones. In short, what you think will never change who I am as a person.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Exactly, being a woman only has the meaning WE inject into it, sans society.

    And you being here telling us how much you like yourself refutes you actually liking yourself. Happy transitioners (oxymoron I know) do not seek out blogs such as mine, unhappy, insecure transitioners do.

    You clearly are trying to find a way to be happy with the woman you are or else we both know hun, you wouldnt be here. Keep reading, there is help through truth.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  31. Oh please. There is no research study....except maybe underneath dirts trailer in her frankendyke lab. She's crazy people!

    ReplyDelete
  32. " It doesn't change the fact that I like myself now more than I ever did before I started taking hormones."

    Why? You are still you and always were, so why should hormones mean you like yourself more? If it's just appearance, that is fairly trivial in the scheme of things, it isn't who you are inside.

    Get treated differently by society, yes, feel you have been given permission to be who you are, perhaps.

    But liking yourself more based on cosmetic changes -- that's mad, even if common.
    No amount of hormones or surgery actually changes the fundamental you. It just hides whatever the disconnect is between you and accepting your body. All that does change, really, is social acceptance and social attitudes, and if you really don't like yourself because of how society treats you, the problems are society, and why what society says that means that you are unable to accept yourself as a person.

    And if being accepted as a man by society is really what counts, then we see why trans has a problem with feminism, which says that how society treats you shouldn't depend on being judged as a man or a woman (except where biology really does come into it, and you can't change that!) but as a human being.

    ReplyDelete
  33. If you meet me on the street or in a profesional situation, I promiss you Dirt, you would not be able to tell I was anything other than what I present to the world.

    Unless you got a look at me nakid you would never know my birth sex.

    Does that bug you there are people out there with genitals that do not match thier presentation?

    ReplyDelete
  34. @anon 7:08
    Excactly! people don't go around questioning the genitals or DNA of everyone they meet. I never wondered if a man i meet really has a penis, or if a woman i meet might have one. that's crazy, no one cares whats in anyone else's pants, unless they are about to have sex with that person. unless you go around undressing everyone you see, or asking what their DNA says, you have no way of recognizing every trans person you meet as such. even if you think a person is trans, you have no way of proving it, unless you go around saying, "oh, that guy has wide hips, must be an ftm." or, "that woman has large hands, and narrow hips, must be an mtf." you would offend a lot of non-trans people doing that.

    ReplyDelete
  35. " you have no way of recognizing every trans person you meet as such."
    Just because we can't necessarily recognise every trans person as such doesn't mean they AREN'T trans and ARE male.

    So,all you're arguing for is a very good deception, but a deception all the same.

    Plus, in my experience, it isn't THAT hard to recognise the signs.

    "Does that bug you there are people out there with genitals that do not match thier presentation?" No, because I don't assign such IMPORTANCE to mere cosmetic presentation!

    The point isn't about whether you pass or not pass under the daft ruls of our society, it's thinking that you need to play the game in the first place! And play it by cosmetically altering yourself to try and fit these daft social rules and social prescriptions of gender.

    ReplyDelete
  36. anon @ 7:20
    you said:
    "I never wondered if a man i meet really has a penis, or if a woman i meet might have one."

    The fact that even in your mind, from the person trying to say it doesn't matter what's between the legs, you just proved how society ranks importance and why you prefer to be read as male.
    Man = has a penis (even IF you supposedly don't think about it)
    Woman - doesn't have a penis

    Its not all about the penis!

    ReplyDelete
  37. " no one cares whats in anyone else's pants, unless they are about to have sex with that person. "

    That is patently and demonstrably untrue, as all the prescriptions throughout history against women dressing as men or men dressing as women show. And that hasn't disappeared! Patriarchal society cares A LOT about what's in your pants, and men certainly DO.

    Let's face it, what is the ONE question that crops up time and again when the trans issue comes up -- yeah, but what's in their pants................

    It matters an awful lot in this society, and that's part of the problem. People are SEXING you based on appearance, not gendering you.

    ReplyDelete
  38. "unless you go around saying, "oh, that guy has wide hips, must be an ftm." or, "that woman has large hands, and narrow hips, must be an mtf." you would offend a lot of non-trans people doing that."

    The question is WHY would anyone be offended by that unless they believe that sex has a deeper significance than just reproductive capability? I don't really care if a Genderist is offended. I don't have any more time for non-trans Genderists than I do trans ones.

    ReplyDelete
  39. @US Army Anon

    I'm sure it's 'better' to be perceived as male but it sure as hell doesn't make you one. It makes you a traitor to women and feminists everywhere.

    Why not work to make life better for women, and especially other non-traditionally presenting and acting women?

    You sold us out.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "It makes you a traitor to women and feminists everywhere. "

    I know it is tempting to say this, but I don't think it helps. After all, I am pretty sure that no woman is going to consider transition on a whim. So rather than calling individual women traitors, let's focus the blame where it really deserves to rest -- on the gender system and the patriarchy.

    ReplyDelete
  41. What BadDyke said.

    First rule of trans club - you exist in a bubble (been there, bought the t shirt.) If you believe the trans line it doesn't cross your mind that your actions can sell someone else out because it all about YOU, the individual.

    ReplyDelete
  42. irritated psych postgradFebruary 21, 2012 at 12:18 AM

    As someone who does these kinds of studies, this would be fruitless and the risks far outweigh the possible benefits. Brain biopsies are a surgical procedure involving general anaesthetic, drilling a hole in the skull and removing brain tissue. This poses risks of infection, adverse reaction to the anaesthetic, risks of brain damage from the biopsy, and risks of seizures from the scarring. No respectable surgeon would do this for a study, and funding it would be a nightmare.

    We have much better ways of looking at the brain. FMRI was mentioned, as well as things like magnetic interference and EEG.

    ReplyDelete

Copyright © The dirt from Dirt | Powered by Blogger
Design by SimpleWpThemes | Blogger Theme by NewBloggerThemes.com | Distributed By Blogger Templates20