Change Your World-NOT your Body

Friday, February 3, 2012

Femininity and Masculinity in the Flesh







dirt
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96 comments:

  1. Please explain further. Thank you in advance.

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  2. I think Dirt thinks that the words masculinity and femininity should lose their current meaning since that seems to be what all the gendery queer/trans stuff is based on, Instead of my being called a 'masculine' or 'boyish' woman, maybe I could just be considered a different representaion of feminine. I don't care terribly much about this but I see what she's getting at.

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  3. Anon, we must expand what is feminine and masculine, to include (naturally) those of us who carry our female body differently and express our femininity in ways those bound and gagged by the Gender Straight Jacket ignorantly perceive as "manly" or "boyish". If born female, EVERYTHING we do with our feminine body IS feminine and nothing or no can can EVER change that simple truth.

    dirt

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  4. I see masculine and feminine not as what is between our legs, but our presentations to the world. To narrow it between the legs is pretty limited thinking... But that is the thing about personal truths. Each of our personal truths are different and nothing or noone can ever change that..

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  5. why don't you post guys with micropenises? they should be as masculine as other men.

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  6. well then none of it really matters does it? we should all just do what we want with our bodies, call ourselves what we feel like, and get on with the real business of living.

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  7. "I see masculine and feminine not as what is between our legs, but our presentations to the world. To narrow it between the legs is pretty limited thinking..."

    There are two reproductive sexes (bar genetic anomalies) it is not 'limited' thinking to recognise that. Masculine and feminine when used to describe Gender are problematic terms because they are subjective and loaded with assumptions. Limiting the meaning of masculine and feminine frees up personal expression, which is a good thing I reckon.

    Theres this belief that setting any limitations on language is conservative and by widening the definition of words you somehow change reality. The truth still remains no matter how much a language is bastardised.

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  8. "I see masculine and feminine not as what is between our legs, but our presentations to the world."

    Bollocks -- presentation to the world should be as many and varied as people can be as humans. Masculine and feminine are simple facts of binary sex, and we get away from them by saying that sex shouldn't effect what you want to do, NOT by this fantasy-land trans cant that gender ISN'T between your legs -- it isn't, it's in your head but not mine! We need to get rid of gender, not elevate this innate gender in the head above simple physical facts.

    God, it so, STUPID, yet so alluring to those with the innate-gender delusion.

    " Each of our personal truths are different" and some of them are UNTRUE -- NOT all truths are equivalent or equally true, whatever the pomo nonsense may say.

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  9. So is the definition of feminin as a noun being used?

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  10. It's quite simple. Historically, biology was thought to mean that men and women had different roles and abilities. Because women (even when they did decide we had souls) were unfit to study, or own property, or vote because of our BIOLOGY and an assumed difference in our brains. So how do we get away from that? By saying that biology (i.e. what is between our legs and hence assumed to be inside DOESN'T effect our brains or our abilities as humans.

    Whereas the trans ideology, whilst seeming to claim that what is between our legs doesn't matter, still says male and female ARE different, but because brains are different. It still sees masculine and feminine brains as being DIFFERENT and ends of a 'spectrum', and adding more options in between doesn't actually improve the situation, because it still sees female brains and male brains as distinct ends of the same spectrum.

    It doesn't help, and in fact makes things a lot WORSE by trying to downplay biology where it does matter, and claiming some internal innate gender is what matters.

    Whether you base it in balls or the brain doesn't alter the fact that you are still talking about the same polarisation, the same dichotomy.

    Only route out is getting rid of gender, not just adding a few more steps in between, or claiming that biology can be overcome by artificial hormones or surgery, which can mould your biology into something it isn't.

    "But that is the thing about personal truths." that some of them are delusions! Thinking you are or should have been a man, or born into a different body, only matters if you think that by 'looking' more male, or 'presenting' as male, means anything at all. It's just false advertising, but if being male or female didn't matter in terms of how you interact with people or get treated by society, then there would be nothing to aspire to be -- nothing would be left apart from body dysmorphia, and a need to try and make the body look different. wouldn't make you a man, just a female with some slightly odd and disabling surgery. Because in the head, we're all just human, although some humans seem to have an odd need to try and appear as something they are not i.e. biologically male when in fact they're female.

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  11. I used to think that I should "fight the power" and try to be proud of being female. Truth is, that is just not how I really feel.

    I want to be male. I desire a strong, muscular male body. My first ideas of wishing I was a body go back as early as I can remember, around age 8.

    No amount of feminism, or even this blog has helped me to be free of that. If I can never be fully male, at least I can live as a man, and be respected as one in the world. It's not as good as the real thing, but it is the best option I have.

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  12. Anon,
    you mean you are not able to become a female bodybuilder, and instead choose to dangerously alter your body chemistry? Really?
    Well, I see your point, as bodybuilding would require constant discipline, something most ftm don't seem to have given their youth. The easier, softer way won't do it, sister.
    News flash: MOST women fantasize about having strong, muscular, masculine bodies. Many have achieved that(Madonna) and others are working hard towards that goal.
    I care about ftm's. I am horrified that you are mutilating yourselves. Please find other options for yourselves.
    You, sister, are a treasure in this world. You are beautiful as you are, ftm UNALTERED.

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  13. "I desire a strong, muscular male body."

    So do many of my male friends! Fact is you can have strength and muscles sans testicles and a Y chromosome.

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  14. " at least I can live as a man, and be respected as one in the world"

    Male privilege, is that it? If everyone MISTAKES you for a biological man, then you no longer get the shit for being a woman?

    "... and try to be proud of being female. Truth is, that is just not how I really feel."

    No wonder -- NONE of us does, without help. It isn't something you can do on your own, especially when patriarchal society keeps telling us that boys ARE worth more than girls, and that girls can't do the same things as boys.

    But if you think you'll really be respected as man -- I doubt it! Because REAL men won't class you as a REAL man however hard you try,and the best you'll ever achieve is to be successfully hidden, but live in constant fear of being exposed.

    Why should you think being respected as a man will make you feel any better, when you can't even respect yourself?

    Now you can see why feminism is a danger to the trans ideology, because if feminism could get rid of gender, then 'living as a man' would make no sense, all you could ever do was live as a human being that everyone else thought WAS biologically male, until they found out that was a lie. You wouldn't be respected then just because you were male, but for the sort of human you were, and a human that lives a lie, what sort of respect do you think that deserves?

    If live like a male looses its meaning, if look like a male is just look like something you're not, or just a cosmetic choice that renders you sterile, what is left of that identity? Not a lot.

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  15. Bad Dyke, That was a really great post. Thanks.

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  16. "I want to be male. I desire a strong, muscular male body."

    This is emotionally honest. This person has admitted to themselves what they truly want, despite the messages from the outside world telling him he should not feel what he feels. Despite what you all may think, there is a mighty guilt trip being laid on transmen, not just a bunch of support from queer yesmen. This person is a treasure in this world and that's not conditional upon him being a "sister" of yours.

    The fact that anyone thinks being a female bodybuilder is a good substitute for transitioning is a clear indicator that none of you are able to do anything but project your own psychologies onto transpeople. In plain talk, you *don't* understand, so you ignorantly transpose your own motivations and damage onto us. Most female bodybuilders supplement with androgens anyway, and you only need to ask one to find out that certain things just aren't possible without androgens. When you speak of ftm's lacking the discipline to work out, I think of women starving themselves and spending their lives in the gym in a constant struggle of self-hate against the female body that naturally tends towards higher body fat. That does not seem healthy. Speaking of healthy, why aren't you all on massive campaigns against women with eating disorders, or using heavy drugs, or staying in abusive relationships? Human trafficking, sex slavery, and forced marriages certainly affect more women than transsexualism and seem way more tragic to me than an ftm admitting how they feel and taking steps to address it.

    Is it true that no women *feel* like women? I don't think it is. Is it impossible to feel aligned with some physical manifestation of a gender? I don't believe so, and you *don't know* the answer. Is it impossible to feel happily content with your physical presence (altered or unaltered)? No. This blog does not represent a random sampling of women, it represents a group who are triggered, angered, saddened, annoyed, threatened, or critical of those who transition. Compared to a random group of humans, these women are taking this very personally, because it seems that acceptance of transsexuality is a step backward in the struggle they have been engaged in for all of their lives to expand what it means, or should mean, to be born in a male or female body. But all people have different struggles and many become myopic because of them. Regardless of political motivations, the response is still that of people taking this personally. Very few people on this blog have seemed able to take a step back and wonder what is actually best for transitioners as people without imposing their own desire for gender freedom. Even young children correctly mistrust the love of their parents when it is coercive or conditionally given. And so it is as it should be that nothing you say here will be taken seriously or trusted by people who strongly desire to transition. You are asking us to go against a very deep knowledge of ourselves for your own comfort. You are telling us that we can never be what we feel we already are. And the more you deconstruct the words and images of gender here, the more moot your points seem.

    This person has spoken plainly about their truth, which is incontrovertible. Guilting yourself into not wanting what you want because feminists say you shouldn't want it is self-abuse. You are not enlightening anyone about how the patriarchy makes them feel what they feel. You are not providing an adequate example of how freed you are in loving your womanhood because you do not demonstrate any evidence of humility and compassion. Simply put, what you are saying and doing here is not working.

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  17. I'm the anon from earlier.

    The comments following mine are an example of the feminist/ fight the power stuff I was talking about. I tried all that and it didn't work for me.

    My life is not perfect, but neither is anyone else's. I am much happier now being perceived as male than I was trying to find something good about being a woman.

    I wonder why this bothers lesbian women so much. I am not claiming that women are bad. I didn't want to be seen as one so I did something about it.

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  18. And being a female bodybuilder has nothing to do with being perceived as male.

    Many ftm people, myself included, do work out to get muscular bodies. I am former US Army and a lifelong soccer player. The anon at 1:41 is misinformed.

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  19. To anon @8:56:
    first of all, thank you for your service to our country. I appreciate that.
    Please inform me. Why is the need to be perceived a certain way,in any way, so important?
    I have long struggled with my looks and finally, in middle age, feel like giving the finger to anyone who judges me--I simply will not accomodate anyone's hoary old notions of femininity. I mean, I give up. Fuck 'em.
    It may have taken me four decades but I now thank God that I didn't alter myself just to fit in with society's notion of what I should look like.
    I now have the luxury to see my mother, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers in my aging features. This I honor.
    I have struggled with these issues as well, so I AM very sympathetic to the pain. It's an ordeal.
    But I choose to honor my grandmothers. Thank you.

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  20. There has been scientific research done which has proven than transgender men do have the same brain chemistry as that of a man. Your entire blog is based on closed minded BELIEFS which have since been disproved; I'm sorry you're too ignorant a group of people to see this.

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  21. " at least I can live as a man, and be respected as one in the world"
    "I am not claiming that women are bad. I didn't want to be seen as one..."

    these 2 quotes say it all

    and FTMs WILL indeed age like the women in their families

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  22. 12:20
    no, you choose to BELIEVE extremely limited 'science' that suits your needs

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  23. (& i am in no way the 'embrace your womonhood' feminist type; i come to this topic only with simple logic, and as someone who has been called sir, miss, and now (shudder) ma'am interchangably all her life and who has been told by the 'queers' that she's a genderqueer or transgender simply because of her style or behavior or interests; this just means NOTHING to her. me)

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  24. "Suits my need"? What need? I am not transgender; I am I scientist. I "choose" to believe it because IT HAS BEEN PROVEN RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY FACE. It is in no way "limited" either; you just choose not to research it because it doesn't cater to your beliefs.

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  25. Were the brains of people with a broad range of gender-expression studied? Right in front of your face?

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  26. just because a brain looks like the standard brain of a man or of a woman it does not mean that those brains are 'in the wrong bodies' or that they are even 'male' or 'female' brains, just that there is great variety.

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  27. Anon: Yes. While your radical feminist group here continues to call the trans community a bunch of misogynists based on old school beliefs and a hatred towards certain aspects of society, there are, in fact, scientists out there who are disproving and have disproved the majority of this blog's beliefs; the only reason you don't see it is because you do not choose look at it. You only look at the negative results of transitioning, which are incredibly fewer than the positive ones, and choose to show this and ONLY this to the public, without showing any of the hundreds of thousands of cases in which the results look perfect.

    E: Yes, actually it DOES mean they were born the wrong way I never said their mind LOOKS the same as a man's; I said they have the same mind as one; as in their chemical make up is a match. It is proof to the fact that their brain is a man's brain in a woman's body. Therefore, there is no "embracing womanhood" for these people, as they are not women.

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  28. so the brain is not a part of the body and operates autonomously as a 'gender?'
    and lots of 'effeminate' men and 'masculine' women are represented in this study? how many people do you know who have had their brain matter looked at?
    from what i understand these studies are small with a limited control group
    i think it's quite a leap from 'this brain is not the average female brain' to 'this brain is supposed to be in a body that resembles that of a male'
    perhaps there is 'supposed to be' wide variation that is in no need of chemical or surgical correction

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  29. You're going to make it your job as a human being to stick people with labels they do not want because they are not it? And you call the trans people the disturbed ones. You are so far from a respectable human being as one can be. It is not in any way, shape or form difficult for one to call someone by their preferred pronouns, whether you agree with it or not. What sick thrill do you get from making young transgender people feel belittled or deranged just because of your belief system which has no scientific foundation whatsoever?

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  30. the science that represents my belief that women are women and men are men is in the dna in every cell in every body (including brain cells and cells of the reproductive organs) of course believing in reality over polarized gender fantasy makes me a horrible person
    so be it

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  31. Gender is not a fantasy any more than sanity. You do not need genitals to asses the chemical make up of the brain. Transmen have the same chemical which is in bio-men; something women do not have whatsoever in their chemical makeup. So your "dna" proves my "fantasy" as much reality as yours. So no. You being a horrible person has to do with you being a horrible person.

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  32. Actually, not only does it make you a horrible person, but also a pervert because you need to know what some stranger's genitals are, and nothing more, to know what to refer to them as.

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  33. SAY WHAT?
    that is nuts
    the other 'non horrible' option (not that i can't tell someone's true sex most of the time by simple clues- i do not need to see their genitals) is to accept everybody is whatever they say they are or believe they are (even though they have this defective brain on which you hang this theory? or is the entire rest of the body defective? or just the parts of the body that reveal one's real sex?) i would never call someone horrible just because they have a different theory than mine though

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  34. "Transmen have the same chemical which is in bio-men; something women do not have whatsoever in their chemical makeup."

    If you're the SAME anon who claims to be a scientist -- then you're plain wrong and embarrassing yourself!

    If it was THAT easy, just take a brain biopsy and you can distinguish between 'male' brains and 'female' brains, then we wouldn't be arguing.

    Except they CAN'T. There is no simple chemical marker in transmens brains that they can also find in bio male brains.

    What HAS been found (in a very small number of subjects, using small sample sizes and frankly some totally dodgy statistical methods), is SOME measurable quantities that supposedly put transmens brains closer to male brains than female brains. BUT, given that they were on hormones, given that the brain is plastic anyway, and GIVEN that for most things you can measure for brains, males and females overlap to some extent anyway, it ISN'T TRUE that transmens brains have been shown to be naturally more like male brains than female.

    "Transmen have the same chemical which is in bio-men; something women do not have whatsoever in their chemical makeup."

    Sorry to burst your bubble hon, but if you're confused about hormones, WOMEN have testosterone as well as men, and men as well as women have estrogen, it's just the amounts that vary.

    "You being a horrible person has to do with you being a horrible person."

    Well, you may think I'm horrible, but at least I'm not ill-informed. GO learn some proper science rather than this garbled trans-ideology pseudo-science...............

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  35. e: You're contradicting yourself. "I assume everyone is what they say they are and call them that" yet you single out transmen online just because you've discovered their genitals?

    Bad dyke: Your name is suiting. 1) I was not the same anon who said they were a scientist. 2) I'm not wrong. In some countries brain biopsies ARE used as a determining factor; the practice just hasn't taken off yet. I wasn't even referring to testosterone and estrogen. If you really think that's all that controls a gender, you really are incompetent.

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  36. & if these women in this perfect study have this 'chemical' it means that women can have this chemical, not that they aren't women!!
    ok i'm out of here- i find being insulted for thinking about and discussing an important and growing issue very jarring

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  37. "What sick thrill do you get from making young transgender people feel belittled or deranged just because of your belief system which has no scientific foundation whatsoever?"

    Why should they feel belittled because their belief system (trans ideology), has no scientific foundation? Might as well berate me for telling people (if asked), that I don't believe their god exists. No doubt some teenage believers feel 'belittled' when I say I find their belief in god a nonsense, but I'm not going to pretend I believe just to make them feel happy.

    Ditto with pronouns -- most of the time, I'll use whatever pronoun seems most obvious, but just as as a dyke, I get mis-pronouned ALL THE TIME -- frankly, I don't give a fuck, just shows how SIMPLE it is to confuse people by having a shaved head.

    We aren't the ones telling young people they NEED sterilizing surgery to be true to themselves.

    We're saying be what you WANT, you can act any way you DAMN please and still be female, there is nothing wrong with HATING what being a proper female is supposed to be in our society.

    "Gender is not a fantasy any more than sanity." There's your delusion right there! YOU make think your gender is innate and important, the rest of us don't HAVE a gender, and think what there IS of gender is socially-constructed and dangerous.

    So we're never going to agree, and we WON'T play your gender games, no matter how important they are to you, because you refuse to even consider how damaging they are to US!

    P.S Don't WORRY about us being rude and not using proper pronouns, that's NOTHING compared to the shit you'll get from bio-men if you really try and pass in their world. You're kidding yourself if you really think the man is ever going to agree that you're a PROPER man just like them. They're laughing their socks off at this whole thing................

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  38. I will not be returning. After going through this blog, I truly hope someone reports it. It's full of uneducated, closed-minded slander and harassment. Have fun thinking yourselves to be society's dedicated gender police while transpeople commit suicide over assholes like you. Goodbye.

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  39. Anonymous said...
    e: You're contradicting yourself. "I assume everyone is what they say they are and call them that" yet you single out transmen online just because you've discovered their genitals?

    I didn't say that and I do not do that.

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  40. most of these post on these blogs are nothing more than opinions. yes some trans men have bad transition but for some of us it actually saves our lifes. to go from wanting to kill your self to being happy and proud. you people who are trashing trans men do not understand nor will you ever understand. walk a short couple of feet in our shoes, you wouldnt be able to handle it because you in fact are the ones who are weak. we are from one community and should support one another. maybe you guys should get off your high horse and come down to reality and realize that no matter how much you guys trash us, bash us, try to seperate us. we will always be here and be proud of who we are, even with our bodies being pumped full of testosterone because that is what we want/need so with that said. have a wonderfull day you male hating sexist (duces)

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  41. "I have only, in my whole life, met two men who see transmen as less men than themselves......Do not make assumptions about men just for the sake of "proving" a point which is false."

    O this is LAUGHABLE!

    Are you really assuming that everyone here is so STUPID to take my opinion as to what men think of transmen, that they can't work that out for themselves? I don't know what fantasy land you are living in, but out here in the real world, most of us know quite a few men, and are quite well-informed as to their REAL attitudes towards gay people, lesbians, transmen, transwomen, women, other men etc.

    Typical response -- let's have a go at the feminists asking the HARD questions, whilst ignoring the real problem, and pretending that ALL men are just ready and willing to embrace us as their BROTHERS and proper manly men just like them. Dream on...................

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  42. "you people who are trashing trans men "

    Nope, I'm not trashing YOU darling, just your belief system. Or do you think that saying god doesn't exist is trashing christians as well.............

    "while transpeople commit suicide over assholes like you." Right, so the transman in the street is so UPSET over the opinions of some feminists as regards gender theory, that they're all willing to top themselves?

    I think not -- it's what SOCIETY says about sex/gender and sex/gender roles that is the problem, NOT what feminists are saying. Goodness, I doubt it if MOST transmen have even MET a feminist (because maybe if they had, they wouldn't have fallen for all this gender crap and misogyny in the first place..........).

    Know your enemy, it isn't us, however UNCOMFORTABLE and challenging you find our questions.......after all, no one likes their cherished belief system being questioned.

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  43. So because you're a part of the lgbt community, you automatically know more about men's perceptions about things than a man does? and you think my knowledge is laughable. No. I work with two transmen. The bartender at the local night club is trans. There is one who goes to my gym - uses the same lockerroom the rest of us do. There is one down the road. ALL OF MY FRIENDS ARE MEN and all but one of them are cool with the transguys - even see them as men like us. YES the lgbt community gets a lot of hate. YES maybe where you've lived is one of the areas that are worse than others. But NO that does not mean the whole damn world is like that. Pull your head out of your ass and accept that maybe, just maybe, you're not right for once.

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  44. 'ALL OF MY FRIENDS ARE MEN'

    Why is that?

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  45. "In some countries brain biopsies ARE used as a determining factor"

    Wrong. I've read the scientific papers.

    Try reading Anne Lawrences critique of the brain-sex theory:

    http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/brain-sex_critique.html

    Plus I'd be VERY worried if someone wants to take a brain biopsy to determine if a living person is trans or not, since the only usual use for brain biopsy is to determine whether a tumour is malignant or not before taking it out.

    MR scans, different matter, but they are NOT diagnostic for trans either.

    I think you need to learn a bit more about the actual science, rather than coming out with these daft claims.

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  46. Really? Out of every single thing I said, you pick out that I choose the company of men? Oh I don't know, maybe because I grew up with them and they stuck around. While we're at it, my boss and my neighbors are men; you going to imply that that indicates I'm against women too?

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  47. "and all but one of them are cool with the transguys"

    O yes, because imitation is the sincerest form of FLATTERY. Stop deluding yourself.

    Hint -- those of us on here may be 'man-hating feminists' but most of us HAVE known a few men during the course of our lives, and know more than a little about what their attitudes are. So don't go trying to convince us that on planet trans, the REAL men all think transmen are JUST LIKE THEM.

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  48. Wow your head must be so far up your ass that no one could get it out without killing you. This is a waste of my time. Deuces.

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  49. So, what daft claims have we had today:

    1) Transmen brains are just like MALE brains (go read the science youngster....)

    2) Real men think transmen are hunky-dory and men just like THEM (rather than amused tolerance, because flattery etc, and transmen being no THREAT to real men, not having functioning penises etc -- if you think a functioning dong doesn't matter to REAL men, then you really are living in fantasy land.....)

    3) The real THREAT to transmen, real men, fluffy bunnies, cute kittens, and the baby jesus and all good things is actually NASTY man-hating feminists..................

    Laugh, I nearly wet myself!

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  50. These comments sound angry, but most of all, really bitter. Why? No one is stopping you from embracing your womanhood or whatever.

    To Anon Feb 5, 11:16pm, you asked a good question: *Why is the need to be perceived in a certain way important?*

    Because our sense of self develops, and is validated from interactions with others. (In sociology this is called the Looking Glass self- Google it) I wanted people relate to me as a charming, handsome guy. I am much happier living my life this way, because it is what I have always deeply wanted, as far back as I can remember.

    I don't justify my transition as being 'born in the wrong body', brain chemistry, etc. Why do I need to? I made a choice for myself. I'm not hurting anyone else.

    Someone commented about not being accepted by men. I have close male friends from serving in the military. They already accepted me as One of the Guys before my transition. That hasn't changed. I have a group of male friends now as well.

    Some of these comments are just spiteful and based in fear instead of reality.

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  51. getting back to the point. that being the photograph at hand.
    please explain.
    if it was already explained, will someone please cite the time? i dont feel like skimming all the bumhurt ftm posts (lazy of me i know. i apologize)

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  52. e, the horrible personFebruary 6, 2012 at 3:18 PM

    i'm no man-hater and i'm not sure feminist is even the best label for me
    i just think questioning this new trans (almost religious) belief is important
    i've had male and female friends all my life
    probably more of the former

    what is this 'deuces'' do you mean 'douches?'

    a lesbian (androgynous) who also was always considered 'one of the guys'

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  53. " I'm not hurting anyone else. "

    But trans ideology IS.

    " I wanted people relate to me as a charming, handsome guy."

    Why? Because obviously you think they are going to relate to you differently as a charming, handsome GUY than they are to a charming, handsome WOMAN. Which is the problem with gender. So, you either think it is RIGHT that people are treated differently, or you couldn't face up to trying to fight that, and saw no option but to change boxes, rather than try to eliminate the boxes.

    Or because they are making assumptions about your biology that aren't true.

    If we could all get treated the SAME, as charming, handsome human beings, then there would be no need for any surgical cosmetics.

    " They already accepted me as One of the Guys before my transition." Same for many women who succeed in the services -- my wife was in the Navy for 25 years -- except she had to be BETTER than all the men to achieve that (O dear, naughty gender roles raise their ugly heads yet again).

    It's a fallacy to think that's it all personal and your personal choice that affects no one else -- if you weren't raised in a society that does and did proscribe such totally different roles and expectations for men and women based on sex, then they're be nothing to aspire to! It would just reduce to, if anything, wanting to be treated like a penis-holder when you weren't one, in situations where being a penis-holder made any difference -- like someone looking for a father for their babies, and trying to evaluate whether you had good genes or not.

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  54. @Bad dyke--

    A society where gender doesn't matter would be nice, but that place is a imaginary wonderland. In the real world, people are treated differently based on things like age and sex.

    So yes, I am treated differently because people see me as a "charming, handsome, guy". DIFFERENT is not universally BETTER however. My teenage sister, obsessed with boys and make up would NOT enjoy being treated as a man, because she revels in being a pretty teenage girl. My point is this: that living as male in this society today, not a gender-free utopia in the future is better for me, not necessarily better for everyone.

    Gender stereotypes do seem to work for most people. Some women enjoy stereotypically feminine things such as fashion, make up, etc. Every issue of Cosmo magazine is all about those topics. They sell millions of copies year. If not women who enjoy those traditionally female things, who is buying them?

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  55. Just to make it clear 100% im not the only commenter who has time for people who have had SRS; its the optional cult of gender that a) bothers us and b) affects us.

    For once, it really is about what's between the ears, not between the legs.

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  56. "Gender stereotypes do seem to work for most people. Some women enjoy stereotypically feminine things such as fashion, make up, etc. Every issue of Cosmo magazine is all about those topics. They sell millions of copies year. If not women who enjoy those traditionally female things, who is buying them?"

    Social programming? Or are those darn tribesmen closet MtFs with their fancy face paint?

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  57. ": that living as male in this society today, not a gender-free utopia in the future is better for me, not necessarily better for everyone. "

    And here we have trans individualism writ large. I've opted out of the fight, cos this is the best for me at the present time.

    "Gender stereotypes do seem to work for most people." Well, fuck that, we don't all agree on that one, however wonderful you think gender is! Same ole line -- choice of two, if you don't like the pink dress-up box, then the only other choice is the blue one, rather than kicking the boxes over and choosing neither.

    " In the real world, people are treated differently based on things like age and sex. "

    And treated differently based on race -- or would your advice be to bleach that skin and get your hair straightened, cos no good hoping for a world where people treat black people equally! cos that is what your 'argument' reduces to!

    Becuase any argument you can care to make as to why it is 'natural' for people to treat people differently based on sex, i'll bet I can come up with a similar one as to why it is 'natural' for humans to be afraid and suspicious of 'outsiders' especially when something like skin colour is soooo different. They're NOT like us after all, everyone can SEE that............

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  58. @BD, And its that single mindedness that refutes their (trans) constant claims of "feminism"!

    Being a feminist isnt about the individual battle/gains, it has ALWAYS about the COLLECTIVE betterment of women!!!!!!!

    dirt

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  59. My whole point with this was to calmly offer the perspective of a person who chose to transition.

    I wrestled with that decision for 2 years. Then I decided to stop denying myself just to make a point against the "patriarchy", and I personally am happy that I did.

    Cheers and good luck to everyone here.

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  60. "My whole point with this was to calmly offer the perspective of a person who chose to transition."

    Why? Thousands of pro-transition testimonials one google away. Thousands of pro-transition discussion forums one google away. Why here?

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  61. "Then I decided to stop denying myself just to make a point against the "patriarchy", and I personally am happy that I did."

    I guess the point is, as I read elsewhere, it's NOT about you! Your 'personal' truth or 'personal' choice aren't really the issue. The real issue is the gender ideology behind trans, and how it effects ALL women.

    That is women who aren't women because we were 'gendered' as women at birth, or women because we think in our heads that we are women, but women who are ASSUMED to be female cos someone took a look at their genitalia at birth. Means we PROBABLY have a functioning womb, and DON'T have a functioning penis.

    And EVERY aspect of our lives from that point on was determined by that fact. Hence our personalities get shaped by that SEXED upbringing as well.

    Some may go along with it and 'fit in' as women, doing the womanly things that society expects of them. Some may come to recognise what a crock of shit we've been sold, and try and subvert the system -- and some may decide hopping between boxes is a better option that struggling to destroy the box system.

    Problem is, the very idea of trans just buys into the whole gender system, because it says that at root, there ARE two different sorts of brains -- there are 'female' brains that are happy in female bodies, and brains in individuals who are biologically female but who feel happier in some other body. Doesn't HAVE to be male brain, female body, just has to be -- my BRAIN is different, I want a male body please.

    By saying they DON'T fit or don't identify, you assume that the rest of us DO identify, you accept the existence of the gender class by rejecting one particular one, rather than by rejecting the whole system.

    It's the same ole divide and conquer -- rather than women organising as women against the patriarchy (i.e. the sex class men), instead it all reduces to personal truth, personal choice, and as many different personal truths as there are people. It subverts what matters -- women as a SEX class. I'm not oppressed because of my gender, or how I present, I'm oppressed because of my female SEX. I can't escape that by changing my presentation, the best that can be achieved is life undercover, pretending to be something you're not -- or admitting that you're not, and being seen as no threat anyway, because you're not REALLY a man where it counts, as it counts to other men.

    It's taking what should be our shared experience as biological females under the patriarchy, and instead focusing it ALL back onto ourselves. Don't like your gender/your body etc etc? The problem isn't society, but YOU, so you'd better go about changing YOU physically, rather than trying to dismantle the system that created the problem in the first place.

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  62. I was just reading an article in Vanity Fair about the popularity of 'Human Growth Hormone' and was wondering, if power, stamina and leanness are the main desires of certain FTMs (and not making people think that they are men, or 'treating them like men'). perhaps HGH is a better option. In the article, people were saying that testosterone was turning them into assholes and HGH doesn't do that. I guess it wouldn't give them the beards and hairy bellies they like to look at in the mirror though.

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  63. BadDyke
    I love your comments but you seem to have a bias against women who DO embody or 'perform' what's seen as traditional 'femininity,' which are generally the kind of women I like to be around, even though (or because) it's not my own way.

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  64. I'll make you girls a deal...
    If you can find me
    A: the ability to urinate standing up at a urinal without the aid of a plastic device that I have to caring around everywhere in my back pocket.
    B: A flat chest the doesn't require me having to wear itchy sweaty material.
    C: I'm a top, I could never be a bottom. So I'll also need something that's attached me, that I could actually feel while having intercourse instead of a floppy piece of plastic.
    D: Body hair, I love body hair on girls and guys but I don't have a lot, so I'll need some more.
    E: A deep voice, again I love deep voices on men and women but mine isn't very deep.
    If you can find me all these items without the aid of hormones and surgery then I'll gladly give up trying to be something I'm not and live happily as a women. But if you can't then I guess I'm a women in denial. But theirs nothing wrong with that, I mean some feminist are still in denial thinking they don't make as much as men and that they don't have equal rights.

    Also, I've always wonder how Dirt felt about Gutterface? Gutterface is a ftm who embraces their feminine side.

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  65. The comment above sums up the average FTM's narrow and silly views, and (assuming that English is not her first language) intelliigence. Very childish simplistic either/or beliefs seem to drive the trans movement. I believe that once one is dependent on hormones this adolescent mindset becomes permanent.

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  66. (I meant assuming English IS her first language.)

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  67. "I mean some feminist are still in denial thinking they don't make as much as men and that they don't have equal rights"

    The pay gap is factual you don't have to be a feminist, just understand statistics!

    As to your points A-E why not be a female (proud, indifferent, whatever) who takes T and has surgical body mods? Its the mental gymnastics to equate these things with maleness that are causing us girlies (lol) trouble. I have lots of holes in my ears but I'm not Swiss cheese!

    If you had said you wanted your prostate examined or the worry of testicular cancer that would pose a problem but your list is perfectly attainable as a bio female.

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  68. "The comment above sums up the average FTM's narrow and silly views"

    In the interest of total fairness, MOST non-trans people I know are Genderists too.

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  69. Oh, I don't think you understand were I was coming from. I personally don't care if people see me as a boy or a girl, I just don't really care about looking like a female. Brest and vagina never appealed too me and never will. Breast are clumps of fat, that sag over time. And no offence but vagina's are quite ugly and scare me some. And having a period is no pleasure either. The fact is I don't want children, so I see no point of keeping my female related organs. But if someone calls me a boy or girl I don't correct them cause theirs no point getting upset. But yes I don't associate with the trans community because I don't see myself as trans. And yes english is not my first launage, and im typing this out on my phone.

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  70. " The fact is I don't want children, so I see no point of keeping my female related organs"

    All of your organs are female related because they contain your DNA. I assume you mean reproductive organs?

    The reproductive system of either sex performs biological functions aside from procreation. It is part of the system that regulates various chemicals in the body. Did you know that osteoporosis is a serious risk for people who have their testicles/ovaries removed? Or that having breast tissue removed can cause permanent oedema in the arms because the breast glands are part of the lymphatic system? Whatever you do with your healthy organs is your
    business in the end but invest in some basic medical knowledge, for your own sake.

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  71. "The comment above sums up the average FTM's narrow and silly views"

    In the interest of total fairness, MOST non-trans people I know are Genderists too.


    Agreed- but most non-trans people don't base their identities on pretending that they do not have these beliefs.

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  72. You can pee standing up as a woman by manipulating your vagina--google it.
    Why this is so important to ftm's is mindboggling, and bras bother all women, but are a godsend for our backs and breasts.
    My breasts barely sag and I am middle-aged and a d cup- i have been doing isometric exercises for decades.
    My vagina is not ugly either.
    You will never come inside of a woman--this is your pain in life.
    Some are blind, some can't walk, and you can't come. Well we all get handed something, don't we?

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  73. I do not see why trans people feel as though they need to be called men to have these procedures done. I have been on a low testosterone for three years because the effects (a more defined jawline, more body hair, and better defined muscles) make me more comfortable with my body. I have also had a breast reduction because of what trans people feel they need to call dysphoria. But I am still a woman. There is still a vagina in my pants, two x chromosomes in my dna, and ovaries in my body). I still embrace my womanhood. I use female pronouns, despite the fact that most people assume I am a male because of the changes society has had. I'm just a woman who looks different than most because of modifications I have made to make me more comfortable with my body. I do not understand why ftms can't just be can't accept that you can do these things and still go by what you are. A woman.

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  74. "Brest and vagina never appealed too me and never will. Breast are clumps of fat, that sag over time. And no offence but vagina's are quite ugly and scare me some. And having a period is no pleasure either."

    Breasts are complicated organs, just society says they are perky things that MEN like to look at.

    Okay, you don't approve of the organ-set of the female body. Tough. That is how we evolved, and REMOVING healthy organs just because you want to isn't something that most surgeons would agree to, if it wasn't for the fantasy that some say they NEED them removed because they are a man/identify as a man, desperately need to be recognised socially as a man, or however else they want to frame it.

    The rest of us (mostly), DON'T get into a state of wanting fairly arbitrary removal of healthy parts of our bodies -- I might decide that 5 toes look unpleasing, or don't allow me to wear strappy heels, but having a toe removed JUST so you can wear heels is frowned upon.

    Thinking vaginas specifically are ugly? Of course you do, given that all that many of us have seen of others vaginas is the shaved/bleached/surgically remodelled ones of porn.

    We aren't USED to what human bodies naturally look like, because all we tend to see of others naked bodies is:

    1) Models (bleached, plucked, tanned, surgically modified etc etc)

    2) Ourselves

    3) Our lovers

    A highly biased sample. Unless you go and look at some REALLY good art (Lucien Freud for example) we just CAN'T see the natural human body as beautiful in all its functionality and history.

    We have to LEARN to appreciate our bodies, and the bodies of others, we need to learn the visual language of actual female bodies, and appreciate female bodies for what they ARE, not what we think they should be, or what men think they should be like (non-hairy, perky, blemish free etc etc etc).

    Plus no woman I know LIKES having her period either.....

    "Some are blind, some can't walk, and you can't come. Well we all get handed something, don't we?"

    Yep. We all got stuck with the body we have, that's just life!

    But how you PERCEIVE that body, that has been so warped by society that no wonder so many WOMEN hate their bodies, or bits of them. Not because vaginas or breasts are inherently BAD, but just because we have been told, over and over, that what matters to WOMEN is how they LOOK, and that we look WRONG, or not good enough.

    I might as well say -- I've got two kidneys, might as well have one removed cos the other will do! Fine if you are being an organ donor, but not something anyone should do on a whim. Ditto a hysterectomy (I KNOW how long my mother took to recover from hers, we are talking MAJOR surgery, it's not like having a mole removed you know...........).

    And to be anatomically accurate, breasts are NOT just lumps of fat, that is a MALE perception that sees bags of silicone under the skin as better than real breasts! Breasts are complicated organs, some breasts have more or less accompanying fat than others, but you could say the same of your thighs, or arms, or cheeks. Removing the breast the organ ISN'T the same as just a bit of liposuction (not that I'd advocate liposuction either).

    Underlying all this, the assumption that we all have the right to do stuff so we can feel COMFORTABLE with our bodies by changing our bodies surgically/hormonally, rather than just:

    1)It's yours, learn to appreciate it

    2) Do it the hard way, diet and exercise.

    So, my back hurts, my feet hurt, I'm not as supple as I used to be etc etc. I don't feel as 'comfortable' as I used to, but THAT'S JUST LIFE, get fucking used to it and stop whining for gawds sake!

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  75. A: Urinating whilst standing - a cultural thing anyway, if you look on wikipedia.Some men do it standing, some do it squatting.

    Plus female urinals have been designed as well.

    Which makes it clear its all about CULTURAL and SOCIAL issues.

    C: I'm a top, I could never be a bottom.

    Heteronormativity and SOCIAL implications of fucking rather than getting fucked. Rather sad, in a way, wanting to GAIN those social implications by trying to surgically replicate what you haven't got, rather than trying to REMOVE the power relations on which this view is based.

    D: Body hair, I love body hair on girls and guys but I don't have a lot, so I'll need some more.

    Some women have hair, some don't, and many men want MORE hair when theirs falls out. But that's just the luck of the draw (plus being part of a population where men tend to have body hair.

    Rather odd also referring to female reproductive organs in such a dismissive way. Look at any biology book --what distinguishes our class of animals? the clue is in the name -- mammal. The latin for teat being mamma. The breast is what distinguishes us, and the placenta and womb is what distinguishes the placental mammals, and WOMEN carry both these.

    The penis? Two a penny in the animal kingdom, some lizards have two, and some ducks have penises larger than their bodies.

    " But if you can't then I guess I'm a women in denial." Nope, just a woman who has developed a strange fetish for some superficial signs connected to being male -- you want false advertising, that's all, because by doing so you think you'll gain the social advantages that men have stolen from us.

    But then, you seem to think that the glass ceiling and the wage gap is a fantasy, so your grip on simple facts seems to be a bit loose...............

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  76. Bad Dyke has heaps of advice on what NOT to do.
    So were supposed to dismantle the Patriarchy and kick over gender boxes. Great idea, but How?

    All this exercise and diet advice, exactly what exercises do you recommend to create a square jawline and deeper voice?

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  77. So.... is this like some kind of cult?

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  78. my personal recommendation is that you don't need a square jawline or a deeper voice
    there are probably some mental exercises that could help you accept that

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  79. why would anyone need to "accept it" when there's a simple option just to change it to be happy. It seems like everyone on here has said "accept it" but what you don't realize is that a lot of people TRY to accept it and it doesn't work, so they move on to plan b, which is just changing it to stop feeling bad about it. This isn't a hard concept: you have a problem, you try one thing, it doesn't work so you try another. if it works, it works. if it doesnt, you try until something does work. transitioning works for some people, so why do you see that as any more of a problem than people who undergo any other medical proceedure to treat their problem?

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  80. "see that as any more of a problem than people who undergo any other medical proceedure to treat their problem?"

    The problem is that others are FORCED to play the gender game otherwise they are evil transphobes. We can't point out that the emperor wears no clothes we are forced to accept it and if we dare to disagree we will get stalked and harassed by those trans fanatics. If it wasn't for the fascism, the faux science, the homophobia and so on very few people would really care about it.

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  81. I hope my english was correct sorry for mistakes.

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  82. This whole FtM thing is completely socially learned. Imagine we could take them back in time to Baroque, where the sterotypical man wasn't a hairy American macho. I doubt we'd be seeing these 5'1" women, with a scattering of facial hair, swaggering around like John Wayne.

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  83. "why do you see that as any more of a problem than people who undergo any other medical proceedure to treat their problem?"

    As well as what bee said, treating a psychological issue with surgery is problematic in itself because it doesn't tackle the root of the problem. Not just picking on gender reassignment. There are other psychological problems where surgery offers a short term fix; like body dysmorphia. The difference is that the BDD community is generally open about surgery not working long term, the support groups really hammer this home, and there's no political agenda to pretend BDD is not a mental illness.

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  84. "what you don't realize is that a lot of people TRY to accept it and it doesn't work, so they move on to plan b, which is just changing it to stop feeling bad about it."

    Is 'feeling bad' sufficient reason to have surgery or take hormones? I think the rise of plastic surgery and some resulting deaths is showing people that such surgery ISN'T the no-risk option that it is sold as.

    It's a mind-set as well -- the fact that as humans we just have to ACCEPT the fact that not all our problems have solutions, and that we CAN'T always have what we want.

    It's just LIFE (and death).

    Plus analysing WHY a certain thing makes you feel bad -- but that is something the trans cult doesn't like you doing. Or trying to find NEW ways to stop people feeling bad about stuff -- except the trans cult doesn't like that either, and closes down conferences and meetings set-up to discuss ALTERNATIVES to surgical 'treatment'.

    You can't have it all ways -- IF it's a medical procedure to treat a medical problem, then let's follow the same standards of treatment assessment as we do for any other procedure, and let us investigate other possible treatments (which might mean, for example, that SRS would become defunct as a treatment, and only option would be get 'cured' of your GID, or live with it, but not get surgery as a treatment for your GID, because alternative treatments were cheaper and safer).

    Of have it as allowed elective cosmetic surgery.............whilst letting others argue against your cosmetic choices, because you can't label it as a medical problem any more.

    Over and over again, SURGERY is the only solution is shouted louder and louder, when what is REALLY being said is - I WANT surgery.

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  85. "when there's a simple option just to change it"

    Except SRS is FAR FROM simple! We are talking, after all, about surgery that renders people STERILE. In any other case, we have very strong legal prohibitions against sterilizing surgery, because it is seen as depriving someone of a very important human right. Even vasectomy is in many cases reversible, and hysterectomy is mostly performed for major health reasons, NOT as some long-term contraceptive option.

    You are really incredibly SIMPLE if you think any of this is simple.........

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  86. well their simple option is just taking testosterone usually, just enough so most people mostly think they're male
    and then when they save up enough money they simply remove those useless breasts
    i think hysterectomies are rare with ftms? until they get older maybe and learn that their poor still-fighting female internal organs will likely become diseased

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  87. http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/timeline.htm

    Thought you said it was only a recently developed idea? There has been written proof as well as scientific findings that trans people have existed for thousands of years. This wasn't a recently developed idea that people just pulled out of the asses.

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  88. Pardon my English if it not good bye the way.

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  89. gender nonconformists have been around forever
    calling it transsexualism and a disorder that needs correction is new

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  90. "calling it transsexualism and a disorder that needs correction is new"

    Because such correction only became possible when we had the surgery and hormones. Hence you could very well say that trans according to the trans ideology is a product of medical advances.

    A whole load of the rest of this stuff just refers to gender non-conformity, or ways to get round narrow sex restrictions -- e.g. if pharoahs can only be male, then all a female pharoah has to do is declare herself to be male -- doesn't mean she believed it, just the only way she could hold on to power. And eunuchs are a DIFFERENT case (since in most cases, was done without consent to fulfill a specific role, like guarding the women without danger of him impregnating them. Doesn't mean that the individual concerned WANTED to be a eunuch.....).

    As before, trans try to lump any sort of gender non-conformity and claim it as trans, when in reality just people getting round the gender straightjacket in any way they could.

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  91. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ygUYgIEHzA

    Gunther (clearly not of Germanic heritage) thinks there is something like a German brain as opposed to a USA brain. Gunther feels German, not American. Gunther changes appearance, moves to Germany.
    The "joke" of the commercial is of course that although all Germans accept him because of flattery etc., he will never be German.
    He doesn't fully have the physical layout, and there does not even exist such thing as a wrongly attributed German brain anyway, it's in the cultural socialization.

    And that is how reasonable non-trans people see trans people.

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  92. "As before, trans try to lump any sort of gender non-conformity and claim it as trans, when in reality just people getting round the gender straightjacket in any way they could."

    That's the reason they are trying to rewrite herstory for example by calling Jeanne d'Arc a he. That's insane. And since everyone is gender nonconforming from time to time...if we use trans logic then the whole world is trans. Thank god that there is surgery and drugs so everyone can be corrected.

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