Change Your World-NOT your Body

Friday, January 20, 2012

Feminine?


Who is more feminine and why?

dirt
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43 comments:

  1. I wouldn't say one is more feminine than other. Personally, I find one of those girls more attractive than the other. The slim girl looks more put together and less sloppy and I appreciate that. But that's personal opinion.

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  2. Yuck, neither is at all attractive.

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  3. I think both are feminine and beautiful.

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  4. Isn't measuring women by femininity buying into patriarchy?

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  5. I don't know, but their outfits are ridiculous!

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  6. Both are feminine. The one on the left does not fit the ideal of beauty that is pushed on people. But they are both feminine just different levels of attractiveness based on sociatal standards.

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  7. I see two women with low self esteem. Nothing more and nothing less. I tend not to measure women in regards to more feminine or less feminine.

    What is more or less feminine anyway? It would depend on the culture each lives in and that varies. It would be like trying to compare an apple, an orange, or a tomato. Just because they are all fruits does not make them comparable. Yes a tomato is a fruit.

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  8. Is that... Andrej Pejic on the right?

    Regardless of whether it is or isn't, I'd pick the one on the left, because she's nailed the humiliation aspect of "femininity". The other one is still posed in a dignified manner despite wearing a ridiculous outfit.

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  9. I really like the one on the left. The one on the right is a tranny.

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  10. If that's what they enjoy wearing, if it's not for men and just for themselves then go them. I don't think judging them on their dress sense is alright. If they're happy, who are we to say what's right or wrong.

    I think the woman on the left is badass. She's happy with her body and willing to flaunt it, even though people say she's disgusting because of her weight. I think that's awesome.

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  11. "If that's what they enjoy wearing, if it's not for men and just for themselves then go them."
    I believe the one on the right is a model, so the outfit and the pose would have been chosen for her. The woman on the left... well, her clothing looks so incredibly uncomfortable. Women feel pressure to do society's version of 'femininity' for themselves, to stay afloat in a world that judges them all day, and I don't think that's the way things should be.

    " I don't think judging them on their dress sense is alright."

    I'm sure this is what Dirt is trying to point out here. That it is NOT alright and yet we are taught to do it since birth. Each person has to realise the full extent of the problem before they have the option of consciously rejecting it.

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  12. I don't know about more feminine, but the one on the left certainly appears less healthy than the one on the right.

    But that's another trend, isn't it, being accused of hatred and prejudice if you even dare think that someone is morbidly overweight, that they're ruining their health and longevity, that society doesn't owe them more.

    Sadly, hiding behind accusing others of prejudice and lack of understanding is a heck of a lot easier than the emotional, mental and physical effort it takes to examine yourself and whether what you are doing is harming, first and foremost, YOU. And as the tones get more strident, the walls surrounding each position grow taller and thicker, and any chance at true understanding correspondingly smaller.

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  13. The only feminine body is the person on the left. The body on the right is a masculine (male) body donning clothing patriarchy has deemed "feminine".

    dirt

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  14. i thought everyone knew about that male model that 'looks like a girl'
    i like him, from what i understand he has no 'trans' ideas - i think transism is the antithesis of androgyny anyhow

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  15. You can't judge "femininity" based on a photo

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  16. ha a new 'macho' photo for extrospection

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  17. "You can't judge "femininity" based on a photo"

    Nope, apparently not! I knew of Andrej Pejic but didn't recognise him.

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  18. Femininity is a fucking abstract construct, a mask that anyone can wear at anytime. It is not the same as being a biological female no, but it is a preformance that people can choose to participate in regardless of genitalia. You are grasping for reasons to be a bigot now.

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  19. Andrej Pejić is beautiful, in my opinion there's no other way to describe him. I don't know if he or the person in the picture on the left are feminine because I don't know them in real life so their self expression (being feminine or masculine, which is only a fraction of self-expression) cannot be placed in a feminine or masculine box based on a picture or even a series of pictures. Plus self-expression in regard to gender (a word and concept I personally disdain) is subjective, what one person finds masculine, another might find feminine - when we start judging people we start living for society and compromise our own self-expression to fit what society wants to see. The same with transition, just because a female is "masculine" and her interests are more or entirely what society deems to be male doesn't mean she is a female-to-male transsexual or butch. I am seen as masculine to the heterosexual world, yet in LGB circles I am seen as soft butch at the most - it's all subjective and a bit silly. I am the one who opted not to transition because I just stopped believing in a gender system, one that oppresses people and leaves no room for self-expression outside the gender binary where females need to be feminine and males need to be masculine and if they aren't somehow they are seen as less than.

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  20. I wanted to answer MNDR, females don't only get pressure from men. I am a lesbian and feel the most pressure from other lesbians in my area who are very much into the classic butch/femme model (butches are very masculine and only date femmes - femmes are very feminine and only date butches). Females do this to each other every day, this pressure does not only come from men but anyone, male or female, who feels they have a right to dictate what you should look like and what you should prefer in regard to sexual attraction. If females don't stop doing this to other females, how in the world can we expect males to?



    - Anon (from above)

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  21. Anon 2:43 - bitter much? I have never claimed to be "macho" - in fact, I am not "macho" at all. It's a cowboy hat... men wear them, women wear them, transmen wear them... seriously? LOL.

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  22. it might be neither one, actually.

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  23. are you people kidding me? Both look feminine. Who is more attractive? The one on the right. The trashy pose on the left is a huge turn off. I like self respect. I see a model on the right. Just because she was born male, she can't be feminine. We all know what feminine means. Whether or not it's right, the clothes/presentation on the right would be described by 99% of people as feminine. Just because the body isn't a biologically female body doesn't mean the person isn't feminine.

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  24. Anon 10:08, I think you misread. I was careful not to say 'from men' when I was talking about pressure to perform femininity.

    We can't expect anyone to stop with the genderism and gender policing until they realise they are doing it and why it's a problem.

    Anon 1:32, you're right, anybody can perform femininity regardless of their biology. How does a skirt and makeup make Andrej a 'she'? (As a matter of fact he's cool with being mistaken for female but doesn't claim to BE one.)

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  25. extrospection
    it's not about the cowboy hat; it just looks like gender-performance to me (of course looking closer i see the standard transman eyes)

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  26. sorry for saying the thing about the eyes if it's taken as criticism or phobia or hatred
    just explaining why the photo looks like fronting

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  27. Anon 5:51/8:41 - You amuse me, seriously. You don't even KNOW me, nor do you know what my eyes look like. FYI - the photo was taken outdoors on a bright sunny Texas day, hence the squint, I have a very hard time with both bright natural lighting and flashes because I have very sensitive eyes. I don't engage in posturing, and I'm sorry if my looks offend you, but I'm just me, and I DETEST "macho". If you actually KNEW me, you'd know how laughable your perception of me is. Truly. But hey, you're free to judge if it makes you happy :)

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  28. PS - I changed my photo to one where I'm not squinting, since apparently squinting is somehow offensive :)

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  29. Anon, your fixation with Extrospection's face has bugger all to do with the discussion on femininity and it is disappointing to see on many levels. Extro, I wouldn't dignify it with a response.

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  30. I am deeply offended by your squint!

    I think anon at 1:10pm pretty much summarised exactly what I think in a sentence.

    "I think both are feminine and beautiful."

    All women are beautiful. I've been teaching my little sister that, no matter how someone looks, there will always be something beautiful about them.

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  31. Extrospection said...
    PS - I changed my photo to one where I'm not squinting, since apparently squinting is somehow offensive :)

    January 22, 2012 1:01 PM

    ***
    Why would you care what anyone thinks about a picture of you? Don't give them that kind of power! Seriously!!

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  32. ugh i didn't mean the squint!
    women have different shaped eyes than men which can't change
    sorry MDNR

    also, the etch- the one on the right is a man

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  33. "but the one on the left certainly appears less healthy than the one on the right.

    But that's another trend, isn't it, being accused of hatred and prejudice if you even dare think that someone is morbidly overweight, that they're ruining their health and longevity..."

    Okay, fat woman on the board here!

    First off, you know NOTHING about the health of the woman on the left. In my experience, this supposed worrying about someone else ruining their health and longevity by being fat is just an excuse for doing the usual fat=ugly thing.

    A thinner woman can be less healthy than myself, just not look it.

    So, what have we had revealed on here so far. Fat = willfully unhealthy, therefore bad (even worse when you get the fat=unhealthy therefore using more of YOUR money that goes into the NHS, hence we should make fat people pay MORE for their healtcare cos its their own fault!).

    Fat=sloppy, lazy, stupid etc etc, I've had them all. Oh, and fat equals low self-esteem..............

    Fat FOR WOMEN has so many connotations in our society (see above), and slightly different ones for men. But this is just society -- fat USEd to mean -- I'm rich and well-fed. Look at the Venus of Willendorf -- someone didn't spend all that time carving this female figure to say -- look at how UGLY and unhealthy she is!

    From my point of view, given that her clothing looks ridiculously uncomfortable, I'd say that rather than some liberating self-expression, what we instead she here is a typical displayed female for the male gaze, just here displayed for those males who fetishize obese women.

    If I was to want to display either myself or another fat woman in a liberating but sexy pose, it would never be a pose like this, which is just standard male porno shite.

    (the bleached hair, the girlish hair ribbon, the displayed buttocks cleavage, the ridiculously uncomfortable thong affair, the standard red lipstick, PINK top and thong, the precarious pose etc etc etc).

    Seems fat is a feminist issue never happened, according to some of the comments on here...........

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  34. Anon 12:10 - I did it to be snarky more than anything :) No one has power over me :)

    Anon 8:18 - I have no issue with my eyes or their shape.. I actually get quite a few compliments on them - and I never claimed to be bio male or hide the fact that I'm trans so what shape eyes men/women have makes no difference to me, although, I disagree with you that men and women have certain shape eyes.

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  35. BadDyke, what you said about the woman's pose is interesting. 'Femininity' is seen as the saving grace for women who would otherwise be rejected as ugly (fat women for instance.) Through the uniform of femininity, women who don't fit the acceptable mould can find a little acceptance again.

    The backlash against women starving themselves in the name of femininity always seems to revert to trashing skinny women instead of questioning the need for 'femininity' in the first place. Instead skinny women are labelled 'unfeminine'. There's no way to win the femininity challenge because 'femininity' is the cure for an invented problem: the supposed pathological ugliness of being female. As soon as one 'problem' has been fixed a new parameter is set; take the body hair thing, it has gone from shaving the bikini line to waxing off the whole lot and now (I'm told) crack waxing for women.

    Might as well throw in the disclaimer that I'm aware of the increasing pressure on men too and it's all part and parcel of gender enforcement (which is IMO a backlash against
    feminism) which I'm against.

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  36. "I disagree with you that men and women have certain shape eyes."

    Male skulls are slightly different to female skulls, statistically speaking, with bony brow, roundness of the eye cavities, and shape of the jaw, being sexually dimorphic.

    Of course, if you insist on disassociating the categories man and woman from biology................

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  37. Testosterone can not and does not change every aspect of the womanly body ftMs try so hard to murder. In fact it only changes a small few.

    dirt

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  38. Well, all I know is that I've seen biological males who have features normally attributed to being "feminine" and vice versa... so it isn't a matter of trying to "disassociate" categories. It is what it is. Not all men fit nicely into a box of what they should look like, nor do women fit neatly into a box. I don't see why Anon feels the need to LOOK for some AHA! feature. For one thing, I don't pass myself off as a bio male - EVER. So if my eyes appear female to you - awesome! I am biologically female, I have no problem with that. At.All.

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  39. "Well, all I know is that I've seen biological males who have features normally attributed to being "feminine" and vice versa... so it isn't a matter of trying to "disassociate" categories. It is what it is."

    Which is it is statistically more likely that if you've got brow ridges like a cro-magnon, you're PROBABLY carrying XY.

    Just because not ALL males have such eyebrow rides doesn't alter the statistical significance. And it does seem to be one of the patterns that humans use to decide that faces are more male-like or more female-like (I'll avoid masculine and feminine since what we are really looking for are good clues as to XX or XY, or sexual maturity etc etc,).

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  40. "if you've got brow ridges like a cro-magnon"

    Actually, in terms of strict paleontological correctness, cro-magnons aren't the brow-laden geezers, probably neanderthals are a better example -- except that calling someone a neanderthal often taken to mean something more offensive that was intended. They did have larger brains than us, after all...........

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  41. I like big booty, so 'go girl'! Well, that's so sexist, but hey...the one on the right looks so androgynous, I cannot tell if that's a real female, more of a sterotype...the other...all the way. At least she's reveling in her big body, which fat women are constantly told to cover it up and hide ourselves....but some of us are just as sexual and revel in it as the skinny girls. And she's brave for putting herself out there in that vulnerable way. I'm probably not much smaller than her anyway...but as a Butch I can cover it all up publicly....the shaming is the same though when we want to revel in our physical, sexual, FEMALE beings....ever heard of the magazines "Radiance" or "Fat Girl", both are size positive magazines for large women and large lesbians respectively, though 'Fat Girl' is no longer in print.

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  42. "At least she's reveling in her big body, which fat women are constantly told to cover it up and hide ourselves...." I guess I can't see that, just because for a long time, the only times I have seen such images is when they have been displayed for male fetishists. And the POSE looks so uncomfortable -- women contorted and displayed for the male gaze yet again?

    I fully agree with the whole 'cover it up and hide it', but with the addition of -- except when we (men) decide we want to look.

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  43. Extrospection's take on FTM is interesting in that it's not really FTM but FtFTM since she doesn't seem to think she's actually a male but a'transmale.' I see this sometimes and wonder if it's from either not being able to 'pass' or just a desire to stay 'queer.'

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