Change Your World-NOT your Body

Friday, October 14, 2011

FTM Chauvinist or FTMisogynist?

I received this message recently:


Far too often we hear these stories of female transitioners adopting the worse traits in men. I suspect her seemingly proud "chauvinist" (like so many ftMs) claims are really an externalization of the misogyny she internalized which lead her to transition to begin with.

Chauvinism springs from a place of historical patriarchal dominance and power, as such it isnt even a possible place that any female, no matter her cosmetic state, could ever occupy.

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13 comments:

  1. "Far too often we hear these stories of female transitioners adopting the worse traits in men."

    You are so full of it Dirt. That is what has been said about butch lesbians for YEARS. That they take on the worst traits of men. You have to be one of the most deceitful people I have run across on the web. Or the most confused. Or perhaps a combination of both.

    I about fell over when I saw that line being used on ftm's. sheesh The mainstream lesbian community who is put off by butch lesbians is who always says this.

    Here is one example posted by someone in 2010 I googled and did not dig past that.

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100724210915AAhpJe0

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  2. That's the same thing that I've heard about butch lesbians. I've heard so many times that they take on the worst traits of men.

    I've heard butch lesbians talk more vulgar about women than some men I have been around.

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  3. I'm FTM and I would never dream of going to something specifically for women. I mean, sheesh, the nerve of some people... I've accepted that my male identity means saying no to certain things, like women's spaces and such. I know I'll never be completely "normal", and I've come to peace with that, too. I'm glad that you've found your path in life as a butch woman, Dirt, and I hope that everyone will get the chance to live the life they want to live.

    Dirt, you never answered my question when I asked why PJ Harvey was bad and Patti Smith good. I'd like to know why you think that. Is it because PJ is younger than Patti? Because she dated Nick Cave and not Robert Mapplethorpe? Or is it simply your personal taste in music?

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  4. I notice that my posts requesting posts about strong butch identity have been repeatedly deleted or ignored...or both. So again, I ask, why is the focus of the blog so much on FTMs? Sounds like you've included them in your space, which I think is the opposite of what you wanted to do. What about the young butches who may stumble upon your page, looking for that proud butch perspective? They won't find it here. Doesn't seem like helping the community. So much of this is FTM this, FTM that. MORE butch positive commentaries may be more powerful that this approach.

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  5. The blog deal primarily with dismantling/critical study of misogyny among females, especially post queer theory. If that isnt what interests you, then google away and find a blog that does.

    dirt

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  6. Dirt, if you want to dismantle misogyny among females, you need to do more than focus your attention and energy on one sect of people who you believe is part of the problem. This doesn't dismantle a thing but give the group you want silenced/changed more airtime. "Look at how this community is being attacked! Look at all of this hateful speech. Geez. I am going to learn more about their cause and ignore this crazy butch agenda." I am sure the trans community is appreciative of the free press. If you want to uplift a community, you need to do more than put negativity out there. You need to actually inject some morsel of positivity in your approach and exhibit some pride in your cause. Shaming one group to get your point across? Haven't we learned how ineffective that approach is yet?

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  7. I dunno why some people spend so much time trying to criticize what Dirt wants to post -- she posts what interests her, and others of us who are interested reply.

    If you want to talk about something else, then go start your own blog -- simple as that.

    " This doesn't dismantle a thing but give the group you want silenced/changed more airtime."

    So, the trans lobby doesn't like this blog because they don't like discussion/dissent full stop. I think the trans lobby is getting plenty of airtime without Dirt. I wanted to hear about feminists objections to the trans agenda, and Dirt and a few other blogs is where I found that.

    I don't know how we change things, but we certainly WON'T change anything unless we first talk about what is going on...........

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  8. "That is what has been said about butch lesbians for YEARS. That they take on the worst traits of men."

    Yes, said ABOUT butches, doesn't mean it was true. It's a predictable response from those who don't understand butches to start with, and are stuck with the idea that butches want to be 'like men'.

    FTMs on the other hand, explicitly DO want to be like men, since they claim they ARE men. Hence perhaps understandable that some, in order to bolster their male credentials, can sometimes adopt the worst male traits.

    Why so much reluctance to pointing this out? Or claiming that Dirt is deceitful or confused because the SAME accusation has been levelled against butches many times.

    Just seems like we get twenty different versions of I don't like what you want to talk about/I think you talk about it in the wrong way/I wish you'd talk about something else rather than actually TALKING about what we're here to talk about.

    I find it perfectly understandable that some FTMs could be extremely misogynistic towards the female state that they were so keen to leave/claimed they never inhabited in the first place. It's the same ole misogyny sufacing in different ways.

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  9. BadDyke,

    You don't know how you'll change things; has this blog changed anything? Is congress lobbying against trans folk because of this blog? Seems like talking about it here is getting you no where. It is providing you with a nice, safe outlet - which by no means should be underestimated - but then what? If this kind of talk is the initial process of bringing about change, I say your vehicle is empty and will never leave its driveway.

    I have tried going to other places to look for butch positive blogs; maybe I'm not proficient in google and wasn't able to find many. But that's why I sought to ask someone who was butch-affirming and claiming all of this butch pride. The minute there is anything that goes against what is being said here, it's a problem. "Go somewhere else." Come on. How do you claim to be all about community when this is your approach? Someone is genuinely asking you a question, so you OBVIOUSLY have taken it as an attack on your character and it's "go start your own blog." Unfortunately, I don't have the time or desire to start and maintain a blog so I can't do much regarding your suggestion. Instead of bashing a group, try uplifting your own first. That's how every minority group has risen to power; not by bashing but by uplifting its own. Is the answer to misogyny misandry? Let's hate hate. This insanity has to stop.

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  10. BadDyke,

    Hi Dirt!!

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  11. "Someone is genuinely asking you a question, so you OBVIOUSLY have taken it as an attack on your character and it's "go start your own blog." "

    I'm NOT Dirt -- I would have thought that would have been obvious, Dirt is from the US, I'm from the UK. So, should be totally bloody obvious from my language.

    Or should I talk about tea and biscuits, the spirit of the blitz , the art of queuing etc before someone believes me.............

    "Instead of bashing a group" NO ONE on here is bashing anyone, that's silly emotive language. Criticism of trans ideology is NOT bashing.

    O what the fuck, I don't care anymore -- if you're such a pillock (there, do you believe now I'm from the UK, since as far as I'm aware pillock hasn't reached the US...although there are obviously plenty of pillocks IN the US) as to continually berate someone for not talking about what you want to talk about, the best I can say is -- O just bugger off you boring git!

    I'm a grumpy ole sod this morning :)

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  12. BadDyke,

    Did I say you were Dirt? I do believe you are two different people so that entire tirade was...well, unnecessary and pretty childish.

    You chose to ignore everything else I said in my post (butch positive, uplifting the community, etc) and answered based on pure emotion. Your "contributions" to this "blog" and this blog itself isn't changing anything. Understand its value as an outlet but it's not promoting any change. More internet charlatans!

    Quite the assumption that I can't pick up on the semantic differences between Americans and British folk (I belong to neither group, btw). :) You're quite the gem, BadDyke. I guess my posts struck some kind of nerve for you to launch such a petulant response on your part.

    This concludes my responding to this blog. BadDyke and Dirt, keep fighting whatever battle you think you're winning.

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  13. Some out there DO seem to think I'm Dirt (and this has happened several times), so unless it a boring piece of trolling, I just wanted to point out yet again that I'm not.

    "and answered based on pure emotion." Nowt wrong with that. Dearie me, did I almost have someone accusing me of acting all girly and emotional rather than being analytic and rational (I'll just go and get my white coat restarched, my scientific demeanour is obviously suffering).

    "Your "contributions" to this "blog" and this blog itself isn't changing anything." I disagree. What is changing is myself, plus given the whole transphobic thing, I was just glad to find somewhere where you could say what I had been thinking without getting jumped on.

    I think there is a need for butch positive stuff out there, but you can find some of that on other blogs. But the best positve messages are from those of us out there and living our lives, not just from posting messages on some blog.

    "I guess my posts struck some kind of nerve for you to launch such a petulant response on your part." AU contraire, sometimes I just like a good grump! The pleasures of being a grumpy old sod are often under-rated..............

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