Change Your World-NOT your Body

Friday, August 19, 2011

Transmen-Primary Readers/Responders to Dirt's Blog

A few days ago I posted two separate questions, one aimed at lesbians and the other aimed at transmen. Thus far the majority of response are to the question geared towards transmen, by those claiming to be transmen.

This blog regularly dismantles past and current ignorances surrounding the trans disorder, while working to inform women how misogyny and the gender straight jacket harms and informs our daily lives and the choices we make. All of which goes completely against medical transition, trans politics and any trans legitimacy. So why is it the primary readers of this blog who are well past befitting from this blog here?

As a lesbian, I cant say I've ever sought out web space that disagrees with lesbianism, nor do I know any lesbians who have either.  Why would we bother? I can only suspect that the transmen reading this blog are looking for some kind of help, only fear asking due to the shame in admitting their terrible transition mistake, which btw isn't entirely their fault.

Never fear asking for help, untransition happens more than the trans community is willing to admit. You are not alone.

dirt

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85 comments:

  1. Actually, as a trans man, I read your blog out of curiosity and a desire to understand why people who are hateful towoards trans folk think the way that they do.

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  2. As there is no "hate" here, clearly its something else.

    dirt

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  3. Well, you certainly come across as hateful, as well as someone with a lot of misdirected anger.

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  4. Dismantling misogyny and the gender straight jacket seems "hateful" how?

    dirt

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  5. I agree with the above anon. If you google search "trans hate blog" or "bigots against trans folk" you get dirtywhiteboi: The Dirt from Dirt.


    You are known as a hateful person. That is your notorious "aka", Dirt. I'm sorry but it is true. And you must face it.

    Nothing you do is out of compassion or some sort of feminist agenda...your only agenda is critique of something you cannot either comprehend nor understand.

    You are the dogmatic outsider. The outsider who has given herself a self-proclaimed merit to make uneducated and groundless "critiques" on people you've never met, spoken with, or psychologically understand. commenting on something that has nothing to do with you.

    THAT is the honest truth.

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  6. I'm all up for that, it's more the whole claiming that trans men are just masculine women who can't deal with that and who hate themselves thing. I'm sure there are people who do that, especially if someone is a masculine woman who is around a lot of trans men, but then people are varied and complex and have different motivations for doing things.

    By the way, I have a good friend who's approaching her 60's and has lived as a butch lesbian her whole life, who says that if she was young now she definately would transition. So your idea that people being trans and having the desire to transition is a new thing is flawed.

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  7. How can you have an effective argument if you don't have all sides opinions. Obviously you go to sites for ftms to get some of your information. It's called becomig educated.

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  8. I think they're just used to being coddled by lesbians and are baffled by dykes who aren't down with transsexualism.

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  9. Matters how hot the lesbian is and if so they can coddle me as much as they like, Darling.

    We are your main readers because your criticisms are strange and sometimes downright funny. For me, In particular its because as a Trans Activist I like knowing both sides of the coin.

    Maybe the reason you dont search out hateful lesbian blogs is because you already know all the criticisms Straight folks have for you.

    Its a choice. Its unnatural. Its against God. Sex is for reproduction. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

    Your views are interesting to me because Your in the LGBT. And the views of an LGBT person against Trans rights are fascinating.

    I also love a good argument.

    I bet all my Brothers here that this will be deleted in under 2 hours.

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  10. "I think they're just used to being coddled by lesbians and are baffled by dykes who aren't down with transsexualism."

    I'm very experianced with dealing with people of all sexual preferences who aren't "down with transsexualism" thankyou very much.

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  11. "I think they're just used to being coddled by lesbians and are baffled by dykes who aren't down with transsexualism."


    This statement is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. The epitome.

    So sad. Yet, so childishly illogical.

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  12. What about MTF folks, Dirt? Is that misogyny too? People who give up their male privilege to become the "minority"? How do you feel about them?

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  13. "What about MTF folks, Dirt? Is that misogyny too? People who give up their male privilege to become the "minority"? How do you feel about them?"

    Dirt's on the Bindle path with that one, saying that MTFs are simply men who hate women so much that they want to pretend to be them so they can have ultimate ownership over the female form. Oh yes, and so they can invade female spaces.

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  14. Think about this, guys: if we are Dirt's primary readership and commentators, if we leave this blog alone, IT WILL DIE OUT.

    So let's do our part. Stop reading, stop commenting.

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  15. I've said this a couple of times in other threads, but I'll say it again here: I read here (and other feminist blogs) because I want to hear what women have to say about gender and sexism. Even - perhaps especially - if it's not entirely in alignment with my own initial perception.

    I particularly like this blog, even though it contains a lot of things with which I disagree, because it directly addresses transsexuality and transition and their ethical implications and impact on women.

    (By the way, I'm somewhat curious about why you deleted my post in the "transmen" thread. I thought I stayed relatively on-topic, and if I said something offensive, I'm not aware of what it was.)

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  16. I think, partially, it is the fact that feminism is a leftist philosophy, and the left as a whole is understood to be accepting of people who don't fit societal norms and expectations.

    To hear such willful ignorance and hatred, cloaked in the guise of feminism by self-proclaimed feminists, is both a threatening and perplexing sight.
    And it is not threatening because we "know you're actually right," or some such bollocks.
    It is threatening because it tells us all that there is no place for us anywhere. We are not welcome anywhere. Not fit to be respected as humans. And all justified with a torturous perversion of a humanitarian philosophy.
    And thus comes the perplexion. That someone who purportedly identifies with a philosophy that all humans should be treated as full and equal people, would so purposefully spout rhetoric that reinforces and encourages the facet of society that dehumanizes, oppresses, and kills trans people. What is not to scratch your head at?

    The political spectrum is a circle, with the far right, and the far left meeting at a point such that they become indistinguishable from each other.

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  17. I like to come here because I have compassion for the struggle that many anti-trans people on this list are going through. I relate to it. I'm a little embarassed for some people who post here, though, because it's so transparent what fuels certain kinds of comments. I'm not proud of it, but I was really alarmed by transsexuality when I first was exposed to it. I was downright unhinged by the very concept. I was paranoid that *I* was being told what I was by transpeople and all kinds of other crap. After years of constructing silent arguments against transitioners, I finally had to confront that no one actually gave a shit who I was, what I looked like, or what gender I id'd as. And that anyone who DID have a vested interest in me transitioning or NOT was not to
    be trusted. I had to confront that I was the one seeking out information about transmen. I was the one who could never let it go. It became obvious that my whole reaction was a hugely internalized wall of transphobia. Of course I was trans-there was never any doubt about desire to be physically male. But fear of losing my friends and family, and fear of change kept me in denial and panic for way, way too long. I wasted years of my life rejecting what I could have accepted. It's hard, and I have compassion for that. If you are experiencing frequent thoughts about transitioners coupled with judgment, anger or the desire to mock, ridicule, or otherwise denigrate us, you have a hard lesson coming. Your own persistent obsession will be the teacher.

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  18. Since dirt can't answer a genuine question and just reserves her "knowledge" to trivial matters, thank you to the Anon @5:51 p.m. for answering the question about MTF women.

    Oh dirty...oh dear old dirty. I wish I could take you seriously. I really want to. I enjoy people who have a strong opinion and leave their emotional side out of solid argument but this entire blog is just your pre-teen online diary. I'm comforted in the fact that this absurdity is shared by you and the few "butch lesbians" who encourage you to continue writing. A little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing to waste. I hope you dedicate this much energy to helping uplift young girls - regardless of sexual orientation - in your community....the ones who need positive and stable role models.

    FYI, I'm not a transman so don't chalk this up to another angry "female transitioner."

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  19. I actually feel pretty satisfied when you delete one of my posts. I know when I've hit too close to the bone...

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  20. <<>>

    Except that's not what you're doing. Not exactly. It's one thing to want to get rid of misogyny and to get rid of the gender straight jacket. Which I'm all for. Not every butch lesbian looks to transition, as I'm sure you know and not everyone who transitions is a butch lesbian. That's gender expression and sexual orientation. This is about being born the wrong gender. A transman does not hate woman he is may not even hate his body. I know I don't hate mine. It might not be shaped correctly, but it's mine.

    Dirt it's one thing to get rid of misogyny it's another to get rid of misogyny and replace it with misandry.

    Also Dirt I read your blog not because I want help but fear to ask but I read it because, as they say know your enemy. You're an example of the people holding the LGBTIQA community. Only you're one of the worse ones. Because you're holding it down from the inside.

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  21. Maybe, just maybe you "might" not be hateful, or claim not to be hateful, but most of you followers are hateful. I have had many attacks from some of your followers on my blog as well as my facebook account. One follower in which I won't name, told me that she hopes and WISHES I burn in hell. I have had this person and or persons go as far as to go onto one of the other sites that I am on, TQ Nation, and harass me. So, you cannot tell me that there is no hate!

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  22. This blog is like a train wreck...you gotta watch and see the drama! All the lies about transmen is UNBELIEVABLE! All I can do is sit back and laugh as now I am a very happy man with a very fine fiancee' and two teenage sons. I have everything a man could ever want and need...all I have been searching for all of my life. I couldn't be happier! My life couldn't get any better..well, except for me having top surgery.

    Oh, and BTW, there is nothing wrong with MTF's as I have many MTF friends. They are not trying to have ultimate ownership over females as they are female themselves. They are also not trying to take over women only spaces either. They are women themselves, so why not let them be where they feel they need to be and feel comfortable where they need to be?

    I feel sorry for all of you who judge us because of who and what we are. Sometimes the simple know not what they do or cause harm to. As a Christian, I can forgive those who put me and others like me down. Just remember, when you point your finger, you have fingers pointing back at you in return.

    I was brought up not to judge others and that is how I have lived my life. I don't care if someone is gay, lesbian, straight, bisexual, trans, republican, democrat, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Mormon, etc...etc...It's not my place to judge.

    None of the lesbians I know feel the way you all do. My best friend owns a gay night club and she accepts everyone. Hell, recently, she just fired a butch bar tender for putting down a FTM who frequents the club. She said she isn't gonna have that bullshit at her club. I totally agree! She sent her packing!

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  23. "By the way, I have a good friend who's approaching her 60's and has lived as a butch lesbian her whole life, who says that if she was young now she definately would transition. So your idea that people being trans and having the desire to transition is a new thing is flawed."

    You accidently just proved one of Dirt's many points.

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  24. Oh please! Then maybe your friend needs to think about her life and who and what she is. Saying what she "supposedly" said to you just seems to boggle my mind. Maybe she really isn't just a butch lesbian, but a closeted FTM. In her time she couldn't have come out...did ya ever think of that? That is if she really said that and you aren't blowing smoke up everyone's asses.

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  25. Parker

    The point is to proof if one can actually be born the wrong gender or is it society that shapes a person to believe that they were born the wrong gender.

    Dirt's view is that biology hasn't proved that it is being born the wrong gender/sex (which is true. It hasn't been proven) So is it a conditioning that starts early on in the child's life. A child's natural self being deconstructed by a gender social construct.

    To me the problem isn't Dirt or trans people. It's gender, the lack of proper treatment and investigating.

    I don't always agree with how Dirt does it. But I do have to say she has a point about that.

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  26. Lets just make this clear.

    There is nothing wrong with gender just like there is nothing wrong with race.

    Gender exists. Race exists.

    There is nothing wrong with either gender or race. Stop saying that. Its so annoying and stupid. We fight for our gender identity. I had to fight for that in addition to being discriminated against for my race. The problem does not go away from destroying gender. Because it is not something that needs to go away.

    The problem comes in when you have dogmatic bigots who choose to presumptuously discriminate and believe that they know more about people they've not even met and pass judgement from behind very very PRIVILEGED computer screens.

    Destroy discrimination. Destroy stupidity. Destroy ignorance. Destroy intolerance.

    Leave gender alone.

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  27. Anonymous.

    My parents always encouraged me express myself in the way I've wanted. It wasn't where I were mummy forced me into dress when I wanted to wear trousers. It's not some conditioning that girls must play with dolls and boys with action figures. [At least from my person experience.]

    Also just because something hasn't yet been proven doesn't mean that isn't correct. Trans* people are just now starting to be taken seriously. I might put it out there that it was only 50 years ago the homosexuality was taken out of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

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  28. I 100% agree with anon @1:30 AM...Right on!

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  29. damn dirty white boy is one pasty ass looking weirdo. She don't look like a woman at all. All her pictures be from the double chin up. She aint got no titties? or maybe she just hates her body so much. She sounds and looks like the ultimate internet troll. I bet you she is really a man just trying to start nonsense online. why don't you get out and get a life you summers eve snortin casper

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  30. Dearest Dirt,

    We are Anonymous.

    We do not forgive. We do not forget.

    Expect US.

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  31. "The problem does not go away from destroying gender. Because it is not something that needs to go away. "

    So there you have it, trans think gender is GOOD, saying it is bad gets you labelled as a hater (because you are not allowed to disagree!), and they're out to get you.

    "We are Anonymous. We do not forgive. We do not forget.
    Expect US."

    There's no two ways about this if that is the case -- it means trans and feminists are diametrically opposed, and we should stop pretending otherwise. O, and stop being scared by the childish threats and puerile attempts to stifle debate that are the only 'argument' that some trans people can come out with.

    Those who call any dissent or debate or disagreement hate or ignorance just show their own ignorance, and their almost total lack of grounding for their own beliefs, other than the everyone knows what gender is, and the vain hope that medicine will support their born gendered nonsense.

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  32. Lynn, You're being a Melvin

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  33. "There's no two ways about this if that is the case -- it means trans and feminists are diametrically opposed, and we should stop pretending otherwise."

    No. Trans and YOUR specific brand of feminism are diametrically opposed. You certainly do not speak for all feminists, and to act as if your brand is The True Feminism reeks of the arrogance one usually sees in protestant christianity.

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  34. "The point is to proof if one can actually be born the wrong gender or is it society that shapes a person to believe that they were born the wrong gender. "

    I agree. I truly wish that the discussion would stay on this simple track. Otherwise it mostly is just an internet shouting match. I rarely hear/ read discussion about these topics that don't get offensive/personal or derailed by "transphobia" allegations. Pity i think, cos "transness" is actually a really interesting topic that touches on more than just "trans" peoples lives, it demands that EVERYBODY challenge their assumptions about gender and identity. This is why i think it's a shame that it's deemed "phobic" to critically analyse transness.

    In my opinion, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that transition (both ftm and mtf) is not at least partly influenced by misogyny - actually there's few things i can think of that aren't.

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  35. "FYI, I'm not a transman so don't chalk this up to another angry "female transitioner."

    August 19, 2011 9:58 PM"

    No shit. Your male entitlement bleeds through every sentence of your post. Even online, anonymous, you don't "pass" as female.

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  36. "Anonymous said...
    Dearest Dirt,

    We are Anonymous.

    We do not forgive. We do not forget.

    Expect US.

    August 20, 2011 2:44 AM"

    More threats against Dirt's first amendment rights. That's all trans do is try to silence feminists.

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  37. "Oh please! Then maybe your friend needs to think about her life and who and what she is. Saying what she "supposedly" said to you just seems to boggle my mind. Maybe she really isn't just a butch lesbian, but a closeted FTM. In her time she couldn't have come out...did ya ever think of that? That is if she really said that and you aren't blowing smoke up everyone's asses."

    I don't really understand what you're saying here... My friend lived as a butch lesbian for the last 60 years because that was the only option available to her. She is currently trying to get a masectomy on the NHS (we live in the UK), but they are reluctant to give it to her without her taking hormones as well (which she doesn't want to take because she is having her menapause anyway and it would just make things more complicated). She has changed her name to a gender neutral one, and I still use female pronouns for her because she has never asked me to do otherwise.

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  38. "Pity i think, cos "transness" is actually a really interesting topic that touches on more than just "trans" peoples lives, it demands that EVERYBODY challenge their assumptions about gender and identity. This is why i think it's a shame that it's deemed "phobic" to critically analyse transness. "

    I agree that it's good to talk about the issues around transitioning, and the reasons people might decide to transition when it's not really the right thing for them. However this is not what Dirt is doing, instead Dirt is assuming that all trans men are really just butch lesbians who can't cope with being butch lesbians.

    I have to say that I've encountered this idea of trans men being basically just one step on from butch lesbians quite a bit in various queer circles I have moved in in the past. It frustrates me, because I feel like people are expecting me to be a certain way that I'm not. They assume they know what I'm going to be like and how they expect me to act in various situations. It's exhausting and annoying, simply because I'm not butch - I've never been butch - and I'm about as different from a butch lesbian as its possible to be (not that I have a problem with butch lesbians, I have some lovely friends who are, but I'm just not one).

    It seems to me that it's the difference between feeling butch/masculine and feeling male. I don't really feel that masculine at all, but I do feel male (not that I understand what that means or where it comes from). My brain thinks my body is male and, while I'm happy with my body as it is now (I take T but I've not had any surgery) it is still a different shape from how my brain thinks it is. However I also like knitting and dressing up and generally flouncing about.

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  39. "However this is not what Dirt is doing, instead Dirt is assuming that all trans men are really just butch lesbians who can't cope with being butch lesbians"

    Please show where this is so. I have only ever seen Dirt state the opposite. Please show where you see something that makes you claim this. Because I've been reading this blog for years and never seen Dirt express that view. You just make whatever shit up don't you? Yes, you do. Put your money where your mouth is and show where Dirt says any such thing.

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  40. "However this is not what Dirt is doing, instead Dirt is assuming that all trans men are really just butch lesbians who can't cope with being butch lesbians"

    Please show where this is so. I have only ever seen Dirt state the opposite. Please show where you see something that makes you claim this. Because I've been reading this blog for years and never seen Dirt express that view. You just make whatever shit up don't you? Yes, you do. Put your money where your mouth is and show where Dirt says any such thing.

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  41. "Please show where this is so. I have only ever seen Dirt state the opposite. Please show where you see something that makes you claim this. Because I've been reading this blog for years and never seen Dirt express that view. You just make whatever shit up don't you? Yes, you do. Put your money where your mouth is and show where Dirt says any such thing."

    What do you mean the opposite? From what I have gathered from reading various posts by Dirt, she thinks that trans men are women who want to present in a masculine/butch way and who also hate women so much that they want to stop being women themselves and destroy any "womanlyness" of their own body.

    This is the message I've got from Dirt's blog, if the message you've got has been different I'd be interested to hear it.

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  42. I once had sex with Dirt and her buttonhole was SUPER hairy. Like, unreal. The only way to do her is from the back and to pretended that she is a man. #gaymanbrowsing #theinterwebs

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  43. There is nothing wrong with gender just like there is nothing wrong with race.

    Gender exists. Race exists.


    Actually race has no basis in biology whatsoever. Neither does "gender," although sex is biological. It seems that people confuse gender roles with sex, i.e. if someone prefers to do things that society has categorized as male in terms of gender expression, then it follows that their sex must conform to their gender.

    The problem is that gender is no more real than race. What is coded as masculine and feminine is *completely* social, made up by and enforced by society.

    So it is frankly absurd to go about attempting to change one's biological sex (to the extent that it's even possible) to conform with gender expression, which is entirely social.

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  44. Ok, here's my story of why I read this blog. I'm a gay man, born a natal male but I was very feminine growing up, as the Green study showed most feminine boys grow up to be gay not transsexual. I'm in my early 50s and have lived my entire life around feminine boys/men and masculine girls/women. Over the last ten years I have had a growing unease with the huge increase of people undertaking transition. In some ways I feel that the GLBT community has become too supportive, transition used to be treatment of last resort, now it seems to be first. Like her or hate her Dirt is one of the few voices that is willing to go against the instant positive support of transition, and I think that is a something that needs to be heard.

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  45. I think many of us come here because poking all you pissy lesbians is kinda like eating potato chips, lol - you're just so fun!

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  46. While I don't think I've ever been "coddled by" lesbians.. but sign me up, sounds like great fun!

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  47. Anon 5:43 "That's all trans do is try to silence feminists."

    Really? Are you really THAT ignorant? That's ALL we do eh? Many of us ARE feminists Einstein...

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  48. We do not forgive, we do not forget

    Is not a Trans person trying to instigate fear.
    Its an internet joke.

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  49. "The problem is that gender is no more real than race. What is coded as masculine and feminine is *completely* social, made up by and enforced by society. "

    If that's true, then why identify as a "woman"? How can anyone be proud to be a woman if it doesn't really exist?

    As I said before, my own transness is based around the fact that my brain thinks my body is male. If I lie down and close my eyes, it feels as if I have a flat chest and a penis, despite the fact that my body doesn't match up to this. Before I started taking testosterone I felt pre-pubescent, not like a "man trapped in a woman's body". I don't hate my body, and I'm not planning on having surgery. It just doesn't match with what my brain thinks it is.

    Also I do think that most people have an inherant gender which is seperate from society's idea of masculine and feminine; it's not something I understand or something I can explain but I do believe it's there.

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  50. "Actually race has no basis in biology whatsoever. Neither does "gender," although sex is biological. It seems that people confuse gender roles with sex, i.e. if someone prefers to do things that society has categorized as male in terms of gender expression, then it follows that their sex must conform to their gender."

    Bingo. Whenever trans people and their supporters talk about how people need to "be treated like a woman" or "live in the male social role" in order to be female/male, they should think about what that really MEANS. If they still support this "gender identity" nonsense after that, they've got no right to call themselves a feminist.

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  51. I think a major problem with this, and something I think about a lot, is that what gives a person their fundemental gender identity (as in male/female/other as opposed to masculine/feminine, ie. societie's expectations about how people ov various genders should behave) is that it is something beyond language, and something that can only be experianced by the individual.

    This means that when people try to explain to others why they "feel male/female" they generally end up talking about presentation or activities they do that conform to these societal expectations. This then inevitably makes people raise the question of why does feeling these things or wanting to express in this way make the person male or female?

    The fact is that it doesn't. The fact also is that many trans people don't conform to society's expectations of how their aquired gender should act.

    Someone who has a female gender identity but a masculine/butch presentation (or a male identity but a feminine/femme presentation) is likely to be confused by this, and either think that maybe they are in fact trans themselves or that trans people must be really like them, or simply be deluded.

    Personally I don't understand what makes people trans, I don't even understand what makes me trans, but I think claiming that trans people are mysogenistic or stuck in gender binary thinking, is simplistic and unhelpful.

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  52. Anon 11:55 said "The fact is that it doesn't. The fact also is that many trans people don't conform to society's expectations of how their aquired gender should act. "

    BINGO! Thank you for this. I transitioned over 13 years ago and NEVER have subscribed to sterotypically male ideals. I don't hunt, I don't work on cars, I don't "hang out with the guys" after work, I cook, clean our home, do all the laundry for my family, am teaching myself to bake bread, I like to scrapbook, shop, and cry when I watch sappy movies. It is so very simplistic to think that this is all about society and conforming.

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  53. Could the proof be any more in the pudding than this? My god!

    dirt

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  54. Trans people try to conform to their aquired gender, but most can't "pass" and so try to justify that by saying they didn't really want to anyway, etc. Many FtM's say they wouldn't trade their life experiences, etc. and wouldn't have wanted to be born biologically male if given a choice. That's all kidding themselves, since they weren't given the choice. The whole point of trans is to conform to a stereotype.

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  55. Dirt............I think you are one of the sexiest women alive!! Pretty smart too at that;) xoxo
    Femmemystique;)

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  56. Anon 1:17 "Trans people try to conform to their aquired gender, but most can't "pass" and so try to justify that by saying they didn't really want to anyway, etc. "

    LOL - you girls really ARE simpletons aren't you? I "passed" BEFORE I transitioned. I used mens restrooms YEARS before transition, I got the "M" on my license before hormones or anything - so no justification necessary - I didn't have to do anything special for society to view me as male. Idiot.

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  57. "Trans people try to conform to their aquired gender, but most can't "pass" and so try to justify that by saying they didn't really want to anyway, etc."

    I actually pass completley as male most of the time, and have done since about 6 months on testosterone. People are generally pretty suprised to find out I'm trans.

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  58. "Could the proof be any more in the pudding than this? My god!"

    How do you mean?

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  59. Anon@ 1:46 + 1:52 - I doubt very much you pass buck naked. I'm sorry for all FtM's since you will never know what it's like to really learn to love and accept yourself, and to recieve that from a partner. You will understand later in life, sadly too late.

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  60. FM, Thanks a bunch and likewise to both you and your Butch!

    dirt

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  61. Parker

    Gender goes beyond parenting. Gender is reinforced by every single person you meet in your life. It's like that with everyone.

    I have always said that I still leave room for science proving the existence that there is something in the brain, etc. Though it would be hard to find transsexuality in animals. Though we've found homosexuality in animals. But we'd still have to deal with social science not just biology. Gender is still a social construct. And problem is that people jump to conclusions using biology that isn't really backing up the ideas behind transsexuality. The current studies thrown around and trying to align oneself with other sex/hormone disorders have to wait. All that can be said (for now) is that gender dysphoria is a body dysphoria like the others (anorexia, bid, etc.) So either way we'd still need to make room for social change. Because we still have people who are in the gray area...ei...people who ID as genderqueer.

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  62. Gender and race are both social constructs that have no rhyme or reason for really existing. We are CONDITIONED throughout our entire lives to believe that there's a reason behind it.

    All I have ever really seen gender and race actually do is cause more HARM than good!

    Now I'm not totally against gender. I'm more so against the stereotypes but once you get rid of them. Now all we have is just biological sex. Hmm...



    Elliot

    I agree! The first person to actually blatantly point out that gender was a social construct to me was butch lesbian (who later transitioned). But it was totally eye-opening. At the same time, it truly did open up pandora's box. Our reactions to our body and our sex is one thing. It's just biology. Our reactions to our gender expression and other people's gender expressions is a totally different subject. That's totally social. So can we react to solely our gender expression without getting our bodies in the mix or vice versa? I don't think a single person I have ever met has been able to do that.

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  63. "I don't really understand what you're saying here... My friend lived as a butch lesbian for the last 60 years because that was the only option available to her. She is currently trying to get a masectomy on the NHS (we live in the UK), but they are reluctant to give it to her without her taking hormones as well (which she doesn't want to take because she is having her menapause anyway and it would just make things more complicated). She has changed her name to a gender neutral one, and I still use female pronouns for her because she has never asked me to do otherwise."


    Butch shame.

    I know plenty of butch women who have shame over their breasts. It's not uncommon.

    Weird that they want to "fully" transition.

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  64. "If that's true, then why identify as a "woman"? How can anyone be proud to be a woman if it doesn't really exist?"


    The word woman means adult female.

    "As I said before, my own transness is based around the fact that my brain thinks my body is male. If I lie down and close my eyes, it feels as if I have a flat chest and a penis, despite the fact that my body doesn't match up to this. Before I started taking testosterone I felt pre-pubescent, not like a "man trapped in a woman's body". I don't hate my body, and I'm not planning on having surgery. It just doesn't match with what my brain thinks it is."

    Classic case of body dysphoria. I haven't studied deep into body dysphorias to understand that its all in your brain that's telling you this. But with other body dsyphoria's its actually a social thing then your mind starts playing tricks on you. Like a trick mirror. Like how anorexics see themselves as fat even though they are a sack of bones. or how biid people feel limbs missing even though they are still intact, etc. not the same as someone having a limb removed or a limb never growing feeling that it is there. Though, you might be right.

    "Also I do think that most people have an inherant gender which is seperate from society's idea of masculine and feminine; it's not something I understand or something I can explain but I do believe it's there."

    It's a social construct. So how does it become inherited? Do you mean a person's behaviors? I'd agree with that. No one knows why we all act the way we do. Part of it is social and part is just who you are.

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  65. This means that when people try to explain to others why they "feel male/female" they generally end up talking about presentation or activities they do that conform to these societal expectations. This then inevitably makes people raise the question of why does feeling these things or wanting to express in this way make the person male or female?

    The fact is that it doesn't."

    Exactly. It doesn't because male and female have to do with biological sex. Therefore gender presentation of "masculine" or "feminine" characteristics (which are based off of social stereotypes) have nothing to do with it.

    "The fact also is that many trans people don't conform to society's expectations of how their aquired gender should act. "

    Yes and no. I know "effeminate" FTMs. I took one to the queer bar. A lesbian thought she was being hit on by a gay guy until my friend brought they were a transsexual. She expected someone "manly." etc. But still proclaiming that said stereotypes of "masculinity" "femininity" and other social characteristics is what makes a person of the opposite sex/gender does repeat the those things make a person the opposite sex and are of a person of the opposite sex.

    But I find trying to explain things that are deep inside of you that go beyond language as you put it on certainly hard to express! The thing is we cannot express ourselves with gender without falling into stereotypes because that's what it is based off of.

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  66. @Anon 4:02 PM

    The Anon I was replying to said that gender was something that was reinforced early in life. I used my parents as examples because my family is small. Until I was six they were the only people I saw regularly in my life.

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  67. "Anon@ 1:46 + 1:52 - I doubt very much you pass buck naked."

    OF coruse I don't. I'm very rarely "buck" naked in front of people though.

    "I'm sorry for all FtM's since you will never know what it's like to really learn to love and accept yourself, and to recieve that from a partner. You will understand later in life, sadly too late."

    Actually I really do love and accept myself, I'm very happy and I love my life. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your idea about how trans people should be.

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  68. "The word woman means adult female. "

    So how can "female" exist if it's all construct? Why be proud of something that is entirely socially created?

    "Classic case of body dysphoria. I haven't studied deep into body dysphorias to understand that its all in your brain that's telling you this. But with other body dsyphoria's its actually a social thing then your mind starts playing tricks on you. Like a trick mirror. Like how anorexics see themselves as fat even though they are a sack of bones. or how biid people feel limbs missing even though they are still intact, etc. not the same as someone having a limb removed or a limb never growing feeling that it is there. Though, you might be right. "

    I have read quite a bit about people with body dysmorphia - two of the main characteristics of it is firstly that people with BDD think that they look different from how they do (for example think that their nose is comically huge or something) and secondly that any kind of surgical intervention actually makes it worse. Whereas most of the time once trans people have had the treatment they desire they live happy lives as the gender they feel they are. The times when this doesn't happen tends to be either when they have chosen to transition because of having very narrow ideas of gender identity (which does happen and should be discussed - but is in my experiance pretty rare)or when people have too high expectations about the treatment, thinking it will magically solve all their problems when really it just solves one of them.

    "It's a social construct. So how does it become inherited? Do you mean a person's behaviors? I'd agree with that. No one knows why we all act the way we do. Part of it is social and part is just who you are."

    I said inherant, not inherited. They are very different words.

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  69. I see your point Parker. But as I said gender is everywhere. I should even expand it to the people that you meet but also what you read, what you see, etc.

    None of us can grow up in a strapped bubble and can't be influenced by it.

    People think trans people are the only ones "obsessed" with gender. Honestly, I think its everyone in our world.

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  70. @7;55

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Female is biological sex. It's not made up. Gender is made up. Even Kate Bornstein and Leslie Feinberg say it. That's where I first heard it from actually.

    People with body dysphoria (biid, gid, or just bd, etc.) can feel their lives become increasingly happy after surgery or "treatment" (if its allowed!). It can make some people worse because they don't feel how they expected to feel. Like you said some people may expect something magical to happen. Also it can be because they will never be who they really want to be because it is impossible, unrealistic, they have no clue who they really want to be, or the "treatment" or "surgery" can't be legally done by a doctor. I think some people learn how to cope with their circumstances differently. They know that there isn't going to be any magic done. Whereas some set themselves up and start to believe lies that everything is ok with how they are thinking and feel or they know their mind is wrong but can't escape it. So they just suffer one way or the other trying to find relief if its even possible.

    I don't believe anyone can get total relief from gender. Its too binding. If we could then....none of us would even be here. I don't think any of us can get total relief about how we feel about your looks, our complexion, etc. Things that society just goes on and on and obsesses over etc. We're all just trying to cope with the nonsense, IMO.

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  71. "So how can "female" exist if it's all construct?"

    Gender is a social construct, not sex. "Female" simply refers to the biological phenotype of an organism that produces eggs. That's sex, which is a concrete reality. Gender is the social roles assigned to people based on their sex, and is culturally based rather than biological.

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  72. Dirt, you're forgetting that not everyone who reads this is either FTM or lesbian. I'm a straight female, I've never thought about transitioning, engaged to a trans man. I follow multiple blogs, fat-shaming, transphobia, racism, just to get to know the thinking patterns of the people who have different views.

    Your two posts - about trans men and lesbians - excluded many of your readers.

    Anyway, I'd like to repeat a question that was previously asked but which you failed to answer: what about trans women, MTF's? Do you have an opinion about them?

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  73. Anon @7:41- I don't really understand. For me, the most important relationships I have are with myself and with my partner. For that, you have to be able to look yourself in the eye buck naked. How can you stand naked in front of a mirror or your partner and seriously say "I'm a man" when you have a female body?

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  74. "I don't really understand. For me, the most important relationships I have are with myself and with my partner. For that, you have to be able to look yourself in the eye buck naked. How can you stand naked in front of a mirror or your partner and seriously say "I'm a man" when you have a female body?"

    Because I'm a transgender man. Because I understand that there are many different kinds of men, and that gender, as well as being about bodies and social constructs, is also about something deeper than that that I don't understand and don't have the language to talk about. And also because I'm not hung up on defining myself based simply on the sense of sight.

    This comment of yours could be applied to many other people as well though - how could a man with gynecomastia and a very small penis possibly look at himself naked in the mirror and say "I'm a man"? Or a woman with a completley flat chest and an unusual amount of body hair, how could she look at herself naked in the mirror and honestly say "I'm a woman"? I'm just using your own logic here of course.

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  75. August 21, 2011 6:46 AM

    For some reason I find what you said beautiful

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  76. Anon @6:46 - Your answer is very confusing. I don't understand why you didn't just stay the way you were born if what you say is true about your idea of yourself.
    As for the rest, anyone born biologically male is male, size and all that doesn't matter. There is a huge diversity, but the point is, none have a vagina. Also, if you look around on a beach, you'll see quite a few men running around shirtless with tits. They don't care.

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  77. _Anon @6:46 - Your answer is very confusing. I don't understand why you didn't just stay the way you were born if what you say is true about your idea of yourself. _

    My current feeling is that, yes, my body doesn't match to how my brain feels, but that's ok - It's taken me a very very long time to get to this point though, and taking testosterone has helped me feel much more relaxed in my skin and able to be myself.

    One critique I do have of the trans community when I first came out, is that there were very set ideas about what trans people should do - first you take testosterone, then you have a masectomy and a hysterectomy, then you maybe have lower surgery (though not necessarily as the technology's not got), after which you would be completley healed and fine. Anyone who diverted from this particular map was considered "not really trans".

    When I was about 19 I first discovered the queer scene and met people who were doing their genders in whatever way they wanted to, it was seen much more as a lifelong process of becoming rather than simply a linear set of things to go through to reach a specific destination. It was through discovering this that I decided not to have chest surgery (or at least not to have it then, I still see it as a possibility for the future).

    The comments you're making do bring up an important issue that I think many trans people try to avoid - the simple fact that, no matter how much hormones or surgery they have, they will never be "just like any other man/woman". As has been said, for most people their body will always be at least in some ways similar to their birth gender. As I said before, and what I think is very good for trans people if they can come to the same realisation, is that this miss-match is ok. My brain thinks I have a cock, I don't, and that is difficult for me, but this is the way it is so I might as well be happy with it.

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  78. "Also, if you look around on a beach, you'll see quite a few men running around shirtless with tits. They don't care."

    This is exactly my point. They are able to feel confident in their identity as a man despite having breasts, why shouldn't I?

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  79. haha
    um because they're actually men maybe?

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  80. "um because they're actually men maybe?"

    But how can they consider themselves to be "actually men" if they look at themselves naked in front of a mirror and see a body that has something so female about it?

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  81. [quote]As for the rest, anyone born biologically male is male, size and all that doesn't matter. There is a huge diversity, but the point is, none have a vagina. Also, if you look around on a beach, you'll see quite a few men running around shirtless with tits. They don't care.[/quote]

    And yes, how about adding that of course women (= people looking exactly like the average woman of your dreams) exist with a vagina and ovaries/no ovaries and XY-chromosomes. What do you do with that, hm?

    Knowing that a lot of different combination of primary, secondary sex characteristics and chromomes exist in nature (the ones not so known calles intersex in general) should make it a bit more complicated to focus on this genitals = woman/man shit of yours.

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  82. transsexuals are not commonly intersex
    they just 'think' they're the opposite sex
    intersex seems to be the most convenient and absurd argument thrown out here
    and even if somebody IS 'intersex' why does THAT even need a 'cure?'

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  83. "Because I understand that there are many different kinds of men, and that gender, as well as being about bodies and social constructs, is also about something deeper than that that I don't understand and don't have the language to talk about."

    okay, now we're into magical nonsense, and it's real because I fell it's real (even if I can't actually talk about it).

    If it ain't biology and it ain't social construct, what else is it? Are we getting into the intangibles of someone having a male soul of somesuch imaginary nonsense here?

    "But how can they consider themselves to be "actually men" if they look at themselves naked in front of a mirror and see a body that has something so female about it?"

    Just shows the narrowness of societys definition of what is appropriate for a 'real man', that's all.

    Some biological men I know have (for example) a fat distribution that some view as more female (particularly round the hips), which causes frequent comments about 'are you really a man?'. They are, just that society has such NARROW sex cues based on appearance, that a shaved head often gets me tagged as male, whilst his hips get the comments above.

    If the guys on the beach could actually lactate and breast-feed, then you might have a point, but since they can't, they're just guys who happen to have a body that narrow society finds inappropriate for men. It only looks female if you're still stuck with the narrow gender binary, flat muscular chests equals male, podgy chests with some fat equals female............

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  84. "Some biological men I know have (for example) a fat distribution that some view as more female (particularly round the hips), which causes frequent comments about 'are you really a man?'. They are, just that society has such NARROW sex cues based on appearance, that a shaved head often gets me tagged as male, whilst his hips get the comments above."

    ...And yet Dirt and others on here constantly get at trans men about the fact that they have "feminine legs" and other similarly stupid comments.

    "If it ain't biology and it ain't social construct, what else is it? Are we getting into the intangibles of someone having a male soul of somesuch imaginary nonsense here?"

    There are many things in the world that are intangable and impossible to talk about, yet still very real.

    Have you read 1984? In that, the government are systematically reducing the language in order to control people's thoughts. If the words for something don't exist, then you can't think about it in concrete terms. In 1984 this is done in relation to concepts such as "freedom" and "liberty", but this is the case for other things we don't have language for.

    As for the concept of a "male soul" which you brought up... Whilst completley inadequet and extreamly problematic, it is actually the only kind of terminology that comes anywhere close to how I feel.

    And just because this is something you've never experianced and never will, that doesn't mean it's not real. I've never experianced an urge to throw myself off a bridge attached to a piece of elastic, but I don't go around telling people who are into bungee jumping that they are mentally ill to feel driven to do such things.

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  85. Ey, dirt, the only reason why I looked at your blog is because I can't believe how misinformed and vile it is concerning transsexuality. You are are dirt. T'es juste une grosse plotte!

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