Change Your World-NOT your Body

Wednesday, August 3, 2011

Transmen and Lezbopbobia

This comment left yesterday perfectly illustrates some of the serious lesbian hatred transmen are capable of, even transmen who were lesbians before synthetic testosterone altered their brains.

There is an underlying lezbopbobia that runs through many lesbians who transition. Lesbians who transition often times will deny their lesbianism by insisting they are "straight males" trapped in female bodies. By doing so they do not have to confront their own, their family's or society's lezbopbobia and misogyny.

This self lesbian hatred externalizes usually after transition, whenever lesbians do not make themselves available to transmen or we do not adopt their deluded self created identities and pacify them. We then become the "cunts, whores and bitches" that patriarchy has deemed us for similar reasons. But unlike straight men, transmen demand more from lesbians and cross more lesbian lines by using their female biology and former lesbian orientation.

Transmen more often times than not demand/expect lesbians to stay partnered with them when they transition, they demand/expect lesbians to date/have sex with them and they demand/expect access to lesbian spaces. Given the lezbophobia that underlines most female transition and then the blatant lezbophobia that accompanies testosterone "therapy", why are lesbians forced to find "community" with transmen?

dirt

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88 comments:

  1. I didn't realise until I came on this blog how bad it was. Okay, I can kind of understand why some transmen would find an advantage in being able to walk down the street and not be seen as a woman, especially if they also have a female partner. But what's the problem some of them seem to have with butches? Is it because butches confront the strictures on women, by refusing to do femininity, whilst transmen have in effect admitted the power of those strictures by conforming to them? And butches are a constant reminder, in some sense, of their cowardice in conforming? How many times have lesbians been asked -- which one of you is the man? Neither, we keep saying, we're both women, do you get it yet? Or been asked, if you like butches, why don't you go with a REAL man? Because they're not female, and a butch is.

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  2. Lesbians have been socialized as girls/women have been. Some of the positive, but sometimes self-deprecating traits are to be fair, to always think of others first, and - to love the content of one's character over the "color/gender/sex/looks" of one's skin. We are also raised with our own self hatred and oppression under the P (that goes double for dykes bc of the Compulsary Heterosexuality aspect), so we can empathize with the F2T "condition", especially those of us who grew up as tomboys AND dykes, like a lot of transmen did. There is also aLOT of pressure in, not only the lesbian community, but also greater society's ideals of what it means to love & partner with someone, to support your partner's lifelong goals.

    On the other hand, it does not make sense, if someone is really a lesbian and not bisexual, AND they are actually respecting/believing their partner's transition to male, that a lesbian would continue, or be expected to continue, the relationship. It's hypocritical of the transitioning partner to expect so, and hypocritical of the community as well. But yet, so typical of the kind of oppression women experience... we are always expected to "stand by our man/woman" or think of others' needs first, putting our own needs second.

    I think the elephant in the room is that there is an unspoken skepticism within both transmen themselves & lesbians, that the transition really does NOT change one's biological sex to the point of truly being a male. That's why lesbians are still okay with allowing F2Ts in our spaces (to a point) - we don't think they're really "men". So, they're not really male, but they're still kinda "gay". That's also why F2Ts don't want to give up being in lesbian space & suddenly go entering the straight world - because so many less people would play to their delusion and it'd be a smack in the face to their identity. I think that's another thing lesbians inherently realize and empathize with too - and they don't want to push their loved ones (transmen) into the straight community because they know how harsh it can be.

    But getting back to the skepticism about the biology - clearly, the line is still fuzzy. Especially when you confront the reality that transmen can't get a woman pregnant (that's why straight women who want children wouldn't get with a transman - DUH) and can't *really* "perform" with their male genetalia like MAABs. The medically-constructed male genitalia is clearly, far inferior to MAABs, but everybody's supposed to pretend like it's not (seriously - what?). (btw, that's the only time I've seen straight or bi women resisting a trans ideology on Feministing - when a trans wrote a post that said straight women who didn't want to f*ck transmen were "transphobic", very telling). But this biological reality also makes it easier for a lesbian partner to stay with her transitioning partner too, if she wanted to - she'll still never have to worry about pregnancy and PIV in their sex life *may* be de-emphasized.

    In the end, the truth is in the biology.

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  3. I'm genderqueer and sometimes consider transitioning. However, no matter what my gender identity is or becomes, my sexual identity will always remain lesbian, or should I say, a biological female who is attracted to and dates women. I've never thought I was a straight male, nor do I ever want to be one. My fiance understands that my gender expression and sexual orientation are two very different and separate things. I have never pressured her to alter or completely change her sexual preferences, because I don't think it's necessary. And no, she doesn't identify as queer. lol. There are so many diverse categories or human beings, so why is diversity within the gay or fran's community any different? It's dangerous and bothersome to group people based on a few presumptions on how you believe they do or should behave.

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  4. What is the purpose of all these identities? I don't understand. Gender indentity, sexual identity...

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  5. Dirt, you are pointing at empty inflammatory and insulting language being used against you as an example of endemic lesbophobia, when in fact it is merely frustrated reactions to your propagation of patriarchally-informed dehumanization and silencing of trans people.

    There is no lesbophobia in trans circles.
    Merely impotent distress that persons so devoted to the liberation and empowerment of one group of people are equally devoted to the dehumanization and destruction of another group of people, all because they unquestioningly accept the words from their enemies about a group that they are not a part of.

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  6. The enemy of my enemy is... my enemy?

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  7. "when in fact it is merely frustrated reactions to your propagation of patriarchally-informed dehumanization and silencing of trans people."

    Ohh yes, it's you guys who are so opressed by non deluded people. It is so dehumanizing when people don't buy your gender ideology. It is so evil that we laugh about your death threats and don't use your favorite gender fantasy pronouns or not letting you play the victim card. I'm going to cry right now.

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  8. "That's also why F2Ts don't want to give up being in lesbian space & suddenly go entering the straight world - because so many less people would play to their delusion and it'd be a smack in the face to their identity."

    This is patently untrue. I gladly gave up being in "lesbian" spaces. But being in queer space is the only place where I might be read as trans. In the outside world I am unquestionably male %100 of the time. Another reason that lesbian spaces are so busted is the butches that are so fucking insecure and self-obsessed that they've taken my transition personally. They feel like I'm telling them they must be women because I am male, and I guess they don't like that answer. In fact my life has nothing to do with them at all, but they are unable to separate out their own issues. This leads to weird posturing and over-compensation. Because my physicality is male, I don't need any of that transparent swaggering and out-manning each other. Who wants to be back on the 4th grade playground again? Not me.

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  9. Sier is 100% undeniably correct.

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  10. Anna S... what an evil person you are.

    I pity you. Hopefully the end your own ignorance and discrimination will end all of the 10 fold ignorance and discrimination you must face from others as a result of your own.

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  11. "Ohh yes, it's you guys who are so opressed by non deluded people. It is so dehumanizing when people don't buy your gender ideology. It is so evil that we laugh about your death threats and don't use your favorite gender fantasy pronouns or not letting you play the victim card."

    Actually, please do laugh at the death threats. They're gross, dudely, and have no place in human interaction.

    Also, some statistics showing how much patriarchal society loves and endorses trans people:
    • Forty-seven percent (47%) said they had experienced an adverse job outcome, such as being fired, not hired or denied a promotion
    because of being transgender or gender non-conforming.
    • Double the rate of unemployment: Survey respondents experienced unemployment at twice the rate of the general population at the time of the survey, with rates for people of color up to four times the national unemployment rate.
    • Large majorities attempted to avoid discrimination by hiding their gender or gender transition (71%) or delaying their gender transition (57%).
    • Overall, 16% said they had been compelled to work in the underground economy for income (such as doing sex work or selling drugs).
    • Respondents who had lost a job due to bias also experienced ruinous consequences such as four times the rate of homelessness, 70% more current drinking or misuse of drugs to cope with mistreatment, 85% more incarceration, more than double the rate working in the underground economy, and more than double the HIV infection rate, compared to those who did not lose a job due to bias.
    • Respondents reported various forms of direct housing discrimination — 19% reported having been refused a home or apartment and 11% reported being evicted because of their gender identity/expression.
    • One-fifth (19%) reported experiencing homelessness at some point in their lives because they were transgender or gender non-conforming; the majority of those trying to access a homeless shelter were harassed by shelter staff or residents (55%), 29% were turned away altogether, and 22% were sexually assaulted by residents or staff.
    [But hey, that's not important. They can't get pregnant so its not important.]
    • Respondents experienced widespread abuse in the public sector, and were often abused at the hands of “helping” professionals and government officials. One fifth (22%) were denied equal treatment by a government agency or official; 29% reported police harassment or disrespect; and 12% had been denied equal treatment or harassed by judges or court officials.
    • Refusal of care: 19% of our sample reported being refused medical care due to their transgender or gender non-conforming status, with even higher numbers among people of color in the survey.
    • Postponed care: Survey participants reported that when they were sick or injured, many postponed medical care due to discrimination (28%) or inability to afford it (48%).
    • 57% experienced significant family rejection.

    Yeah, patriarchal society loves us.

    Lets just put it this way. I will concede that, according to feminist theory, the patriarchy would be all buddy-buddy with us.
    They are not.
    And the facts prove it.

    I would posit the theory needs some tweaking.
    (Note, I'm not saying toss out feminism. Just re-evaluate some parts, where facts contradict theory.)

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  12. Dirt, why must you delete all factual and statistical information that proves patriarchy has no love for trans people?

    Do you posit they're lies?

    Self-reported fabrications of the schizophrenic?

    Or do you suggest that they deserve all the hatred and abuse they receive?

    Someone suggests we are not victimized by the patriarchy. This is materially false. Why must you replicate the very patriarchy you wish to overthrow by refusing to face facts?

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  13. I'd never imagine reading that female bodied individuals who were attracted to other female bodied individuals would be so homophobic!

    But it is true! No one likes dykes! I have been pissed off for a long time about the silence surrounding lesbianism in the media! Society is very GAY MALE interested right now. Where are the WOMEN? Society doesn't even think lesbian sex is actual sex! So its easier to mask your homosexuality in a heterosexual veil by declaring to everyone around you that you're really a man than facing the fact that you are actually just a homosexual!



    Anyway,

    Labels are dangerous. I bet many of you are unaware of how many labels for gender and sex there are these days! TOO FUCKING MANY! It's enough to make any rational person become irrational and confused! Females pick these identities up rather quickly. Majority of the pangender, genderqueer, gender variant folks I have met were female and majority of them struggling with identity were also lesbians that's why there's a huge chunk of FTMs that claim they are straight. There are gay FTMs too but this isn't even in the topic but its pretty obvious why there are some.

    There's nothing wrong with gender. There's everything wrong with gender stereotyping so changing yourself to another label ain't gonna stop shit!


    Not all FTMs want to leave lesbian spaces or date lesbians. But I know a few FTMs who pitch a fit if a lesbian doesn't give them any play. Women spaces are being removed not to bring in bio men but trans men and the gender confused. Talk about hypocrisy.

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  14. "There is no lesbophobia in trans circles."


    Oh right but there's all the trans phobia in the world in some lesbian circles?

    It goes both ways.

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  15. @10:21

    Actually, fortunately, most modern lesbian, gay, and queer circles aren't too transphobic. I mean, shit happens, but that's due to misunderstandings and lack of information. Just like I'm sure some lesbophobic or homophobic shit pops up in trans circles. But they are not signs of systematic transphobia/lesbophobia. Shit from the outside world just bleeds in sometimes.

    What is unfortunate, though, is that many of the prominent voices, leaders, and the old guard of women's lib are quite transphobic, and are/were unwilling to listen to any challenge to their longheld dogma, formed back in the days when the patriarchy rarely permitted trans people to speak for themselves. Only those token pornographic stories which validate its hatred, derision, and dehumanization of trans people were allowed out into the wild.

    I'm sure you can understand there might be a problem if the only available information about transpeople at the time of the formation of second-wave feminist thought is that which is specifically filtered and edited by the patriarchy.

    Daly, Jeffries, Raymond, Greer, etc. All of them extremely insightful on the lives of women. All of them, working on the completely poisoned stories of transpeople permitted by the patriarchy. And most radical feminist discourse since has been completely tainted and informed by these initial patriarchal stories.

    This has had wide-reaching and long-lasting effects on the further dehumanization of transpeople.

    And here we are. Still trying to convince a handful of worthwhile parties that they do not know what they think they know, and that their words reinforce a society that hates transpeople as much as them.

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  16. Thanks for releasing my comment @8:25. I gladly rescind my accusations @8:41.

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  17. I'd like to point out that the person writing that comment did not mention anything of their own gender identity. Or sexual identity, for that matter. For all we know, this person is a lesbian woman. Who knows.

    It may be a hostile comment but the person does have a point. I'm a trans man. I lived as a straight woman, then a lesbian woman, then I started transition. My girlfriend stayed with me, she has never identified as a lesbian so that wasn't a concern for me. People look at me and see a straight dude. I'm also bi so I go out with the boys and am seen as a gay boy. I don't usually come out as trans until I know someone awhile. My point, I've been a part of the lesbian community, straight community, gay community, trans community, and the fetish community. It does seem to me that lesbians are the least favorite subculture. Sad sad sad. The world is so obsessed with the penis! Lol but seriously what's the deal with this?

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  18. In response to transmen not wanting to give up lesbian spaces, that's simply not true. Yes there is a small part of the population that chose to stay in lesbian spaces once they've transitioned. However, I know more transmen that are offended by the transmen that do that. It doesn't make sense to us. If you identify as a man why are you tryin to get in the lesbos pants? She wants a chick. Wouldn't he just worried that she saw him as a woman? I don't understand this behavior.

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  19. How can you generalize the entire FTM community based on one ignorant comment someone left you? This is fallacious thinking. All it takes is one example contrary to the claims you are making about the entire community to disprove them.

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  20. "if the only available information about transpeople at the time of the formation of second-wave feminist thought is that which is specifically filtered and edited by the patriarchy."

    This is just daft, and assuming that women who had enough sense to see through what the patriarchy was doing to women, would then just lap up whatever the patriarchy said about trans people.


    Except of course they DIDN'T. It's very simple, the patriarchy and some trans people see gender as innate, in the brain, hence its okay to make brain and body 'fit' by modifying the body.

    Whereas feminists say the whole concept of gender is a load of shit.

    Trans and the patriarchy SUPPORT gender, feminists want to get rid of it. Simple.

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  21. "How can you generalize the entire FTM community"

    She didn't. Show me where she wrote: That all FTMs are like that. You can't show it because it's not true.

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  22. "Yeah, patriarchal society loves us"

    Then why so many of you support it?

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  23. "what an evil person you are."

    Tell that to the gender fascist not me. The only evil persons are the ones who force their fictional identity upon others and cry transphobia everytime someone is sceptic about that. Not only this they used it as silencing tactic but it doesn't work anymore. I'm fed up with all these whining and these hypocrisy.

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  24. Some FtM's may say that they don't hang out in Lesbian spaces and are read as 100% male in the straight world, but the hard cold fact is, buck naked they don't pass as male (or even female anymore.) That's why they continue clinging to the Lesbian community. What else can a woman do with male secondary sexual characteristics?

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  25. As a transsexual who used to be an insanely proud lesbian, I wish that you would stop generalizing people.
    Not everyone thinks the same.
    I was completely proud of being a lesbian, my family was and so was all of my friends. I never hid it.
    None of the facts that you have ever said about why transmen transistion have been anything like my life.

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  26. And another thing! You are a coward who deletes comments that prove you wrong. Actually speak back instead of pretending it didn't happen.

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  27. A well known lesbian bar I hang out in has become overcome with transmen!! It really makes me sick dirt...One of my ex friends started dating an ftm and wouldnt go to gay pride weekend because she is now "straight" but her and her partner now hang out at the LESBIAN bar all the time! I don't get it. Call me transphobic if you please but I really hate the fact that these people feel the need to hang out in our spaces.....really if they are now "straight" and hate being called lesbians hang out where you belong. I have become transphobic and frankly I'm proud of it....sounds harsh but thats how i truley feel...their aren't very many places for us lesbians to hang out; and I just don't get why they feel the need to literally TAKE OVER! Makes me sick!
    Femmemystique

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  28. "I have become transphobic and frankly I'm proud of it....sounds harsh but thats how i truley feel."

    You are a sick individual. A sick twisted individual. And I wish the most homophobic people to come into your life and turn your ignorance inside out. Ten fold.

    Only the worst type of idiot takes a single (silly) situation and generalizes it to rationalize their bigoted hatred and -phobic behavior.

    You are a tragic disgrace to the lesbian community.

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  29. Will you are a liar and a fake. From Will's website:
    "I have feelings for another tranasguy, and I don’t want to date him out of fear of being percieved as a lesbian couple."
    What a lying hypocrite you are. Lesbophobe.

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  30. at anon 1:09
    Sick and twisted?? mabey a little. honest? 100%!!! I unlike alot of other people; am not just going to sick back and cater to these trenders!! And it's not just one silly situation my dear. THEY are fucking everywhere and they are becoming younger and younger. TRAGIC!

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  31. oh i meant anon 1:14 btw

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  32. Being a Transman who lived many years as lesbian identified I can tell you this..

    The bulk of the lesbian community detests Butch Lesbians. It is commonplace to hear "if I wanted to be with a man, I would be with a man."

    The bulk of the gay men are not comfortable with Butch Lesbians.


    Both refer to them as Dykes or Bull Dykes.

    On the other hand, the bulk of the transgendered community does not hate or detest Butch Lesbians. It has been my experience they are live and let live kind of folks.

    To take one persons email and make this about the bulk or all of the transgendered community is known as generalizations. It is a sign of a narrow minded black and white thinking pattern with tunnel vision.

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  33. Anon@1:18pm

    The reason Butch lesbians arent popular with the general lesbian community is due to Butch Invisibility, which has become worse since queer/trans theory reared its conservative head.

    Butch VISIBILITY would illustrate that Butch's are the proud women that we are, rather than the men that we are not!

    dirt

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  34. @ anon 1:17pm

    who cares. Your point had no validity. You're a monster for saying what you said. I wish the worst for you so you can't cause any damage within this community.

    You shameful disgrace.

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  35. For me, trans have lost all credibility, and although I do feel sorry for anybody who is ill, I don't buy any of their bullshit anymore. I lost one good friend to this trend. I don't care if anybody calls me "transphobic." I think we should kick their hairy asses out of our Lesbian spaces.

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  36. "Then why so many of you support it?"

    See, that's the funny thing.

    Only in your head, by your theorization, and your wordplay (lets be honest, a great chunk of philosophical thinking is nothing more than vast games played with words) do our existences support patriarchy.

    And yet, we don't.

    I mean, how do you quantitatively measure that we somehow coddle or support patriarchal ideas and attitudes?
    Pulling from the observation that right wing women are encouraged to espouse anti-feminist attitudes by being granted token bits of power by men, generally over other women, I think we can extrapolate this to every branch of social justice.

    So, do we get token bits of power or encouragement?

    Hell to the fucking no.

    In reality, we are reviled. We are thrown at the bottom of the pile; quite often more than LGB people. We disgust them for the very reasons repeated here time and time again. We are often denied some of the basic human considerations because we confuse and frighten them.

    Only in theory might it be argued we support patriarchy. This theory, however, contradicts reality. We get no cookies, we get no pats on the head, we get no encouragement to be what we are. Only abuse and hatred through and through.

    What do you do to a generally sound theory that doesn't match some facts?

    Revise it.

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  37. I may not know what a woman is but I know what a woman isn't. If you have a penis you are not a woman. If you inject testosterone you are not a woman. If either of these is you you do not belong in a woman's only space.

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  38. @ BadDyke

    "This is just daft, and assuming that women who had enough sense to see through what the patriarchy was doing to women, would then just lap up whatever the patriarchy said about trans people."

    Well, for the longest time, prominent feminists were unwilling to take any consideration to the unique problems of women of color. (Yeah, yeah, I know, not this again. But please, hear me out.)

    What caused this problem? Why were they so dismissive for the longest time? Because most of these prominent voices weren't women of color. How can you truly understand the lives of a minority group that YOU ARE NOT PART OF?
    You can't. Plain and simple.
    Do you expect a man to really understand the lives of women? Do you expect the visually able to really understand the lives of blind people?
    No, you don't.

    And you know how I know that these pioneering feminist thinkers were lapping up only what the patriarchy fed the world on trans people? Because that's all there was to go on, and because just about every. single. argument. used by feminist thinkers to invalidate trans people had been used by the patriarchy to deny us our humanity even before that.

    Your underlying motivations, sure, are 100% different.

    but they manifest in exactly the same way in the real world. To deny us our autonomy, our humanity, our LIVES.

    So, you tell me.

    Which one is feeding the patriarchy?

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  39. I mean, how do you quantitatively measure that we somehow coddle or support patriarchal ideas and attitudes?

    You do not need to be in positive agreement with something to be partly responsible for its continued existence. Social systems are perpetuated by people consciously OR unconsciously following social rules and norms. In a patriarchy it is assumed that there are innate differences between two sexes. If a transperson is talking about "having always felt like a man/woman" and gives this as an explanation for surgery s/he is advocating biological essentialism by arguing that there are indeed essential differences between an inherent male and female state of being. Sex essentialism like this is one of the normative foundations of patriarchal societies. The abuse you suffer for being trans is built on this. The rapes you suffer are built on this. The murders your community suffers are built on this.

    It's useless to cite research on this because sex essentialism is everywhere- you can find hundreds of studies for every imaginable subject and you only need to walk down they toy aisle in a supermarket to see it. To understand how social systems work look at the micro-macro-model of James Coleman for starters (http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/macro-to-macro-causation/).

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  40. And you know how I know that these pioneering feminist thinkers were lapping up only what the patriarchy fed the world on trans people? Because that's all there was to go on, and because just about every. single. argument. used by feminist thinkers to invalidate trans people had been used by the patriarchy to deny us our humanity even before that.

    Where's the proof? For everything in this comment.

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  41. Yeah, I don't want to become known as a serial commenter but have a look at the paternalism in the segment I highlighted: pioneering feminist thinkers had to "lap up" patriarchal thinking because there was nothing else around. Seriously, those pioneering thinkers actually had a mind and personality of their own.

    Good riddance. It's like that person once accusing me of being like John Money because I agreed with him on gender being a social construct. Guilt by association is still only guilt by association and not guilt per se.

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  42. kurukurushoujou,

    I'm sorry, I was just restating BadDyke's exact words mockingly when using "lap up," if you'll note the quoted text. I was debating whether to use it or not; I guess it just came off as paternalistic.

    But gee, sure sounds like a tone argument derail to me.

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  43. anyway, kurukurushoujou:

    So, you have a theory about the patriarchy's relation to women, as well as transpeople. One that, arguably, has real-world meaning and real-world applications. In fact, the theory can even make predictions. Right?

    One such is from Dworkin's observation in Right Wing Women, that women who espouse anti-feminist rhetoric, and support patriarchy, are encouraged to do so. They are granted token benefits and power by men to do so, often to the detriment of women around them.

    And like you say, it doesn't even have to be conscious. Such a system perpetuates itself unconsciously because such a reaction ingrained in the culture. But it does exist, can be observed, and is the reason why right wing women persist to this day.

    The same thing can be said for just about every other oppressed minority catering to the patriarchy.

    And now, you are saying that MTFs, FTMs, and GQs, by the nature of them existing and transitioning, theoretically support the idea of essential gender. So, in theory, we are an entire class of right-wing-supporting men and women. By the same rationale, one would think that the whole lot of us would benefit substantially by our appeasement to the patriarchy.

    But we don't. If a transperson is found out to be trans in right-wing environments, we expose ourselves to an exponentially increased risk of violence and death. The reaction is never "Oh, well I'm glad you got your stuff sorted out. At least you're not gay. Welcome to manhood/womanhood!" or even as much as an indifferent shrug.

    The reaction is almost unanimously "ew, don't touch it."

    There is no incentive, conscious or unconscious, given by the patriarchy for us to be what we are.

    I cannot say how best to resolve the problem of this version of feminism with the factual information that contradicts it. I'm no such great thinker.

    But that portion is undeniably invalidated, under the necessity of theoretical falsifiability.

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  44. "who cares. Your point had no validity. You're a monster for saying what you said. I wish the worst for you..."

    Then you are a monster too.


    "I have become transphobic and frankly I'm proud of it...."

    The problem is, no matter what you say you will be always labeled as transphobic. It's an awful silencing tactic. So it's no wonder why many people don't care about this anymore.

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  45. Anna S.

    Nice try at flipping that script. It was pretty childish...and I'm sure you do desire to protect people that are transphobic by flipping the script...but the bottom line is that it is disgusting and shameful. That person clearly stated that they WERE transphobic.... and you are defending her.

    She didn't say that she was "labeled as" transphobic. She stated that she IS and she is proud of it. If you condone that you are the same type of disgusting bigot who deserves 10 fold of what they dish.

    You're no better than a racist, misogynist, or a homophobe. You all belong to the same tree of uneducated, senseless, witch-hunting hatred and ignorance.

    Disgusting. I feel sick to my stomach that Im even associating with you by typing this. I wish I was joking in saying that. You are absolutely shameful.

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  46. All of you who are proud to be phobic, in which ever way that you are, should really seek out some therapy. It takes a special kind of person to claim to be proud to hate a group of individuals. I mean c'mon ladies. Does it really benefit your life and happiness in a positive way to be filled with so much hate? Not that I'm some tree hugging hippie or anything, there are definitely people I don't like and even groups that I don't want to be around.

    Someone made a comment about how they shouldn't have to share a community with trans people. I'd like to know how old this person is. Last time I heard a statement like that was from my racist great grandfather talking about blacks. How about sharing space because we're all human beings and have that in common? How about sharing space because even tho trans and homo are different, they are both queer. You know, I don't know why we stand up to the hetero community when we are just tearing each other down anyway. This is ridiculous.

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  47. Dirt,
    To your comment on butch invisibility. So you think the butch community is at all at fault for that? I mean you present yourself the way that you do right? If I saw you across the street with your femme girlfriend I would think you were a straight couple, butch girlfriend a gay male couple. So you are quite literally invisible. You look like a man so no one sees you as a butch woman until you correct their pronoun usage. I dont say this to offend, just to try to get a better understanding of what you mean.

    Also, why do butch women walk around like roosters with their chest puffed out? Like they are pretending to be as tough as possible? From my experience, butch lesbians are the most sensitive species of human.

    What do you do to make butch women visible? I imagine someone as committed to this as your are would be part of organizations and activist groups that work toward butch visibility?

    ReplyDelete
  48. To be fair, 8:09, mainstream society really isn't too keen on women who don't play its game.
    Also butch women are rather easy to identify just visually, unless they're wearing a burka, or skimask.

    I personally would love to see more butch women out and about in the world, unashamed of living and loving on their own terms. (provided those terms don't necessitate a dehumanization of other groups)

    Patriarchy has really done a defamatory number on the lot of them, though.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Sier,
    Well where have all of them gone? Are they locking them selves up in their houses? Are they transitioning? Turning Femme? I mean obviously there are tons of butch women, why aren't you all out making a stand in the streets? Doing something productive for yourselves instead of sitting around fueling the fire on this blog?

    ReplyDelete
  50. Dave, I wouldn't exactly classify myself as a butch woman.
    I'm trans (of indeterminate sex and expression ;) )
    I just think Dirt and others are right in that there is not enough love and respect for butch women in the world.

    ReplyDelete
  51. not everyone who is on here and against transition is a proclaimed 'butch lesbian'- just pointing that out
    and not every 'bufch lesbian' cares about visibility or community or what-not.

    ReplyDelete
  52. An out and proud lesbian doesn't want to be a heterosexual man. She wants to be a lesbian. She sees herself as a woman.

    So how can one be formally an out and proud lesbian but now a man?

    Sounds to me having gender identity disorder the entire time and not being proud of who you are but just trying to mask it.

    ReplyDelete
  53. " Anonymous said...
    Being a Transman who lived many years as lesbian identified I can tell you this..

    The bulk of the lesbian community detests Butch Lesbians. It is commonplace to hear "if I wanted to be with a man, I would be with a man."

    The bulk of the gay men are not comfortable with Butch Lesbians.


    Both refer to them as Dykes or Bull Dykes.

    On the other hand, the bulk of the transgendered community does not hate or detest Butch Lesbians. It has been my experience they are live and let live kind of folks."

    I think I agree. But I have to say that butch and transguys do not always get along. Butches are told they are just trans in denial from other transfolks or from others who do not understand butch identity. And transguys do not like the comparison to being just butch lesbians not heterosexual men and vice versa.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anon@8:09pm,

    Actually I nor any other Butch looks like "a man", and anyone that is close to a Butch would readily agree.

    That you would think so, illustrates your gender straight jacketed thinking.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  55. uhmm... that is not a real word

    ReplyDelete
  56. "And now, you are saying that MTFs, FTMs, and GQs, by the nature of them existing and transitioning, theoretically support the idea of essential gender. So, in theory, we are an entire class of right-wing-supporting men and women. By the same rationale, one would think that the whole lot of us would benefit substantially by our appeasement to the patriarchy.

    But we don't. If a transperson is found out to be trans in right-wing environments, we expose ourselves to an exponentially increased risk of violence and death."

    You do.

    The whole lot of you do benefit substantially by your appeasement to the patriarchy. Until you are found out or expose then the efforts are not appreciated. Passing though is key. Passing shields one's identity. A secret. A female passing into a male world as male (with the help of science and/or changed documents) does reinforce. Explaining ones brain is male thus one's mannerism to behavior is male though the person is female does reinforce. It's not about stealth or not living stealth. The concept overall reinforces. I agree that it is not appreciated (unless its in places like Iran where it is preferred) and can lead to violence. It leads to violence because of what kurukurushoujo...which goes right back into patriarchy.

    Personally, I think its about gender confusion and trying to navigate an already fucked up system the best way that you can. No one is really appreciated for any effort to help or to reinforce. Because in the end its all a backstabbing mess.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Dirt,
    Ok so you don't look like a "man", obviously you're a woman. So you look "butch"? I would say butch women look masculine. Would you say that's wrong because masculine is a male word? Also, when you say you don't look like a man, do you mean that there shouldn't even be descriptions that someone of any gender looks like a "male" or a "female"? Or do you mean in the literal sense of not being male?

    ReplyDelete
  58. How are lesbians "forced" to find community with transmen? I don't see it. I have friends who are lesbians, but they don't feel threatened by transmen because they understand themselves to be different. They understand that they have a different path in their lives. It's only because you seek to destroy our identities that it's clear you are conflicted about your own. I'm sorry that this is hard for you, but truly we don't give a shit what you do with your bodies or how you identify. If you decide you are one of us or if you decide you want to date one of us, then we can talk about identity. Claiming that the lesbian identity is being undermined by trans identities takes for granted that transmen are sexually oriented towards women. This is patently untrue. Before and after transition. Like it or not, we are here and we will continue to be here. Proud and different from you. We are what we are and we are okay with that. Such an attack from you belies an underlying insecurity. That's for you to figure out. Good luck.

    ReplyDelete
  59. From the Middle Ages on in Europe, (and I imagine in many other places in the world,) you had Lesbian couples where one would dress up, work and in general pass as a man in society. That was done for safety reasons. "Trans" has just popped up in the last 100 years, and all this gender bullshit terminology in the last 10 - 15.

    ReplyDelete
  60. also, you're all being so hypocritical. you speak of 'losing' friends to transition? so you stopped being their friends based on this? and you don't want transpeople to hate you?
    this is so ridiculous.

    and Dirt, I'm sorry but if I saw you in the street I would assume you were male, the way you present yourself. baggy clothes hiding your figure, what else are people supposed to think?
    just like the majority of butches.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Who knew baggy clothing equals male...lol To be honest I dont wear clothing, baggy or otherwise on my head!

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  62. " baggy clothes hiding your figure, what else are people supposed to think?"

    Uhh, people should think females don't always wear form-fitting clothes? And that a woman who doesn't perform femininity is not male? No wonder you hate yourself - you have internalized so much female-hatred that you now promote it!

    ReplyDelete
  63. "you seek to destroy our identities "
    Hahahaha. Jesus do you listen to yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  64. "The bulk of the gay men are not comfortable with Butch Lesbians.

    Both refer to them as Dykes or Bull Dykes."

    Sorry is this supposed to be some sort of evidence, because where I come from, dyke is a quite normal word that lesbians use for themselves. The clue is in the name...............

    Most gay men don't have a problem with lesbians, and certainly not with butch lesbians.

    "I'm sorry but if I saw you in the street I would assume you were male, the way you present yourself. baggy clothes hiding your figure, what else are people supposed to think?" Just shows what DAFT views of gender you've got, if you think that baggy clothes equals male. God, if that was all it took, why do so many people spend so much on top surgery?

    But the WORDS you use are terribly revealing, in that you ASSUME that being female means you should wear clothes that DO reveal your figure. That females should be on display etc etc. you've really taken the whole patriarchal gender based nonsense and believed it.

    " you speak of 'losing' friends to transition? so you stopped being their friends based on this? and you don't want transpeople to hate you?
    this is so ridiculous. "

    simple example, someone who goes from being a lesbian, who then transitions and identifies as a straight man. If we BELIEVE this transition nonsense, then I'm not going to be their friend, I don't have straight male friends.

    Trans go on so much about the effects of T, are we supposed to ignore the changes?

    But more simply, when I lost friends to transition, the plain fact was that the woman I had been friends with was gone -- because that was what she wanted, she didn't want to be that person any more. Whether or not I believe that she became male, or had a male brain, or any of that nonsense, the plain fact is that she herself stated that she didn't want to be the person I had been friends with.


    Yeah, and I'm transphobic as well, given the STUPID definition which labels you as such if you will insist that transmen aren't as good as real men, or aren't real men.

    "Also, when you say you don't look like a man, do you mean that there shouldn't even be descriptions that someone of any gender looks like a "male" or a "female"? " NOW you're getting it! Looks like a 'male' or like a 'female' usually means looks masculine or feminine rather than some slightly more subtle comment about finer points of bone structure, or absence or presence of visible stubble. And those are just stupid constructs.

    I quite often get mistaken for a man, despite my very apparent secondary sexual characteristics, just because I wear trousers and shirts, and shave my head. Seems the shaven-head signal outweighs everything else. I don't look like a man, or look like a woman according to societys narrow definitions. Get over it!

    ReplyDelete
  65. @ Anon 6:54

    "and I'm sure you do desire to protect people that are transphobic"

    Cry me a river. I did not protect her as you can see. I never wrote she was right. I was reffering to the whole sceptic= transphobic dilemma. People like you see transphobia everywhere. Which means to me that these people have some sort of god complex which makes them imune against critique. Dirt is labeled as transphobe although she never wrote about hate or murder. The only death threats come from many transgender individuals. Which shows again the hypocrisy and that they have in fact a phobia against people who are sceptic. To bad sceptophobia isn't a real word.

    I will use your statement because it fits so much:
    They are no better than a racist, misogynist, or a homophobe. You all belong to the same tree of uneducated, senseless, witch-hunting hatred and ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  66. that 'will' is the same one who left a now-deleted comment about how (s)he'd be more fueling patriarchy by wearing heels and make-up like (s)he's supposed to
    an absolute gender conformist
    i'm occasionally taken for male mostly by old folks or young kids - i don't wear baggy clothes(?) or have a shaved head but occasionally wear a necktie

    ReplyDelete
  67. Every comment I have posted to defend myself has been deleted. Why is this such a one sided argument?

    ReplyDelete
  68. W.

    Up until now the only comment that was deleted was the one where you called someone a "moron", which is unacceptable and childish.

    Your last two comments which you made were JUST delete as both were chock full of sass. If you cannot calmly and rationally reply I can only assume you are a troll or a very angry young female who needs to count to ten.

    And having a most awesome set of tits of an average size, whether across the street or up close, they are always proudly present.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  69. @Baddyke,Exactly.

    Gay men have always LOVED me! And Ive heard the same thing from ever Butch I know and have known.

    Gay men LOVE flirting with Butches too!

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  70. Honesty majority of the population does not wear baggy clothes anymore. That's actually more of the minority now. I have never seen a gay man threatened by anyone, except maybe homophones.
    On a different note transgender is not more accepted than homosexuality. People who are trans usually have a great life until someone finds out they are trans. Then all hell breaks lose unless they are in a liberal community. Homosexuals are also not accepted by non liberal communities once their sexuality is known. You can't look at someone and tell they are gay. Unless they have a a tshirt or something that says so. Unless someone is putted they are protected whatever community they are in.
    I still attend pride every year with my girlfriend. I will never stop attending them. I am apart of the lgbt community and I enjoy meeting new friends. Even if the T was to be dropped I will still attend as a supporter.

    ReplyDelete
  71. but T is different than L or G in that it's for the most part entirely based on disguising the truth for society

    ReplyDelete
  72. And the T can't even articulate which rights they are fighting for. G and L can and do.

    ReplyDelete
  73. You're right. The T shouldnt be included. LGB community exsists to support each other and fight for rights that they do not get. I as a transman enjoy all of the rights that every heterosexual person has. The tax benefits of being legally married is pretty damn awesome

    ReplyDelete
  74. let's say someone is a muslim (or a jew in certain places) and doesn't want to reveal this fact for fear of their safety- should they also be grouped in with homosexuals?

    (gay marriage legal in my state- though you do make the iranian-style case)

    ReplyDelete
  75. Oh come on Dirt. I haven't been remotely insulting this entire time.

    Is a healthy discussion about the validity of our humanity too heady for this place?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anna S.

    You need help. You truly do.

    You and the way you think is the problem. Nothing else.

    ReplyDelete
  77. @Sier,

    Proclaiming males who transition "give up all male privilege" is a flat out lie.

    This blog is about the truth about transition, before and during (since there is no after), not about the trans spin on the truth. Therefore when I catch untruthful comments regarding transition, those comments will be removed.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  78. "It takes a special kind of person to claim to be proud to hate a group of individuals."

    You misunderstand -- I don't hate trans people, just that the definition of transphobic you'll find is so narrow that ANY questioning of the trans creed gets you labelled as transphobic.

    Such as saying that sugically-mutilated women aren't men, for instance.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Not all transmen have problems with women. I have been involved with the trans community for almost 9 years. And I have never met anyone that had a problem or ever made a negative comment directed towards women. Yes, what that person said was extremely inappropriate but you can't judge a whole group of people for the actions and words of some. And before you toss out assumptions, no I am not a transman.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Why are transmen in lesbian spaces.. anyway? That is what I am not understanding. If one says they are male, then stay out of the spaces of women. Simple as that. Yes, I am a transman. No, I do not identify as lesbian nor insist that I have to be included in any grouping. I do have to say that it is rather rude to say that a butch lesbian, 'looks like a man'. I just thought to write this little comment because I am appalled how those from my community are insulting the women here. This is their space, fellows, where they can speak as they wish. Apologies in advance if I press any buttons.

    ReplyDelete
  81. "But I must insist your theory is wrong (re: us) and contradicts the material truths of our lives and experiences."

    What 'material truths'? Saying that trans people don't always access privilege by transitioning doesn't mean that the analysis is wrong, just that as it has before, the patriarchy is clever in getting those who suffer from it to also support it!

    The point is simple -- the patriarchy rests on there being clear biological differences between XX and XY. Lesbians and women who oppose gender roles challenge this. Trans people aren't such a threat, hence in the interests of the patriarchy to support 'sex changes'. Rather than saying 'some women don't fit the roles', so much EASIER to say that's because they're really men.

    Plus we all know those male surgeons LOVE a nice challenge. I can just imagine them saying -- these sissy boys, no use to society, let's see if we can make them into a girl! I bet I can make a prettier girl than you can..........

    Boils down to, we're not allowed to question the validity of the 'I'm really male' voice that transmen claim to hear. They need to hear that to support their claim to transition, whilst we're maintaining it is a delusion, generated by the patriarchy, which is NEVER going to go down well with those using it as the basis for their 'identity'.

    ReplyDelete
  82. lesbianplusfeministAugust 6, 2011 at 8:05 AM

    "To receive male privilege is fundamentally not a cookie given to patriarchally-reinforcing minorities though. Its a full-out acquisition of privilege granted to anyone who appears male."

    An MTF doesn't have to appear male to retain certain male privileges. Foe example, there are attitudes and perspectives on life that boys are raised with, such as the expectation that they will be listened to and valued for their personality instead of how "sexy" they are, and the experience of being able to go out alone at night without fear of being raped. None of that completely disappears once they pass. Of course, those who don't pass, though they may not be treated well, are treated as men, which is better than being treated as a woman in a million different ways.

    "By blending in and being invisible, they cannot possibly be reinforcements"

    If that were true, all the straight, non-trans, gender-conforming people in the world couldn't possibly reinforce patriarchal concepts either. They all blend in quite well, better than anyone else. That doesn't make any sense, obviously. Reinforcing patriarchy is the norm; people who are not reinforcing it stand out, not blend in.

    "So how on earth can you rationalize that we are driven and encouraged by patriarchal forces when there is nothing of the kind?"

    You seem to think that just because a person is not benefitting from something, they are therefore not reinforcing it. That's not realistic. People do things that are not in their best interest all the time. As for the answer to your question, take a look at the comments transpeople leave on this blog explaining why they transitioned. Take a look at the screenshots Dirt posts from their forums; hell, go read the forums and websites yourself. Go read their blogs. Their own words contain plenty of evidence of the role patriarchal perspectives play in their thoughts about transition.

    "You said so yourself. Its a concept. Not a material truth."

    You are completely misunderstanding the use of the word "concept" here.

    "Your theories presuppose that patriarchy is conceptually organized and logically sound"

    This doesn't make any sense. Arguments (premises and conclusions) are (or are not) logically sound; patriarchy is not an argument. What do you mean by "conceptually organized?"

    ReplyDelete
  83. "ANY questioning of the trans creed gets you labelled as transphobic."

    That's exactly what's so pathetic. It's nothing but a sceptophobic (I like that word) tactic to stop critique.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Thank you, lesbianfeminist!

    That is exactly right.

    FTMs view themselves as male and try to blend into male society. Therefore as "males" they are subjected to and given the same privileges that biological males are given. So blending into male society by proclaiming one's female self is actually a man totally reinforces the notions that certain behaviors/attitudes are restricted to the male sex and female sex. Total binary bullshit! On top of the fact, that one gets male privileges as they present male in society. One doesn't have to approve of the privileges to be given these privileges.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Oops.

    I hit enter before I was finish.

    I'm anon 5:33.

    How you are RAISED is very important. A male child raised as male later transitioning to female...will not and cannot erase everything learned from childhood about what it is to be male even if they did not feel male. You can see it in the attitudes and thinking, etc. It's also about their views of females based upon being raised as male not from being developed and raised as female/woman since the beginning.

    Plus we are ALL influenced and subjected to patriarchy! Trans people are not any different! So we are all trying to deal with a fucked up system that we are born into. So the real enemy is the system that reinforces bullshit. That makes you start to question and detest your body from a young age and reinforcing gender bullshit!

    Check out the Brown vs. The Board of Education. Pay close attention to the ideas behind it and the concept of black baby dolls vs. blond white baby dolls. You see first hand how a child finds distain for themselves from exposure to bullshit! It doesn't even have to be in the house! I know many people jews, asians, blacks, and gays who were not raised to hate themselves - but to be proud but the exposure to the outside world...made them that way!

    ReplyDelete
  86. "But society doesn't say this. Society has never said this.
    Society has never condoned it, and has always viewed transpeople as a fundamental threat"

    Bollocks. Why then do public health systems in the UK, or health insurance in the US allow SRS? Why are there psychiatrists and surgeons out there trying to 'cure' GID by offering sex changes? It's STANDARD medical practice.

    Because it ISN'T threatening to say to the general population, there are male brains and female brains, and sometimes things get a bit crossed, you end up with a male brain in a female body, and we just sort that out as best we can for that individual. That is inherently non-threatening, because it is in accord with the way much of society runs, which is the ASSUMPTION that there are natural ways that females behave, and natural ways that males behave. Because most people DON'T go around questioning that, in themselves or in their children. Just look at the toy shelves in any shop!

    Being seen as being a bit icky in some way is not the same as threatening the gender sterotypes in the way radlesfems and butches do. And why is it seen as a bit icky? I think part of the problem is male homophobia, in men being afrais that a M2F won't be spotted, they'll end up sleeping with him, and get teased by their mates for being queer. F2M, they're just weedy, queer-looking guys anyway, and no real threat to REAL men since they haven't even got a fully-functioning dick (which is after all the defining characteristic of PROPER men as far as the patriarchy is concerned!).

    ReplyDelete

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