Change Your World-NOT your Body

Monday, August 1, 2011

Trans Trending-Who is Transitioning

More female bodies for the transition mill.

dirt

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57 comments:

  1. Truly Dirt,

    Coming from a place on concern and compassion...

    you must stop this. This is wrong. It's just wrong. Its the wrong way to do what you're trying to do. Its the wrong way to call attention to what you think may be a cause. This is humiliating and dehumanizing.

    Please. Stop this.

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  2. Why do so many of these girls want to look like Justin Bieber? Tween girls think he's cute because he's unthreatening, he's unthreatening because he is NOT masculine in any way. You would think a F2M would aspire to be something other than a very femme boy, if not then why bother to transition?

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  3. I mean no disrespect, but please lose the bluebird twitter link. It changes the tone of the blog from provocative to something more like late 90's death-by-gif.

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  4. Truly Dirt,

    Coming from a place on concern and compassion...

    you must stop this. This is wrong. It's just wrong. Its the wrong way to do what you're trying to do. Its the wrong way to call attention to what you think may be a cause. This is humiliating and dehumanizing.

    Please. Stop this.

    .... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.. UNLESS the results dirt is getting are exactly the results she wants... Which is not about giving a damn about Transgendered people.

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  5. seriously dude, that bird is annoying.

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  6. I don't like the bird either, it gets in the way of the text.
    Over and over.

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  7. @Quay Summer

    "You would think a F2M would aspire to be something other than a very femme boy, if not then why bother to transition?"

    Why bother to be a man at all if you're just going to be an unconventional one?

    I don't know, because that's what you feel comfortable with? People don't always transition to be more socially acceptable. Transitioning to male dramatically shrinks your dating pool (ESPECIALLY if you're a femme, male-oriented guy) and makes you the target of a whole lot of ridicule and violence.

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  8. It's so obvious that this is a youth fad. Maybe they were looking for something that still had shock value.

    Book review time: I had the misfortune of running across a book entitled "Nina Here Nor There" which is apparently the latest hipster-trans narrative. Now, what was really interesting to me about this book is that it gives one of the clearest pictures I've seen anywhere of the faddish nature of this whole FTM phenomenon. I'm sure that wasn't the author's intention, but it really makes the trans trend look like a childish fad. The author was a lesbian around 30 who moved to San Francisco and fell in with the "queer" crowd. She makes friends with women who are in various stages of transitioning, so she starts off with a frog bra, then binding, then calling herself Nick, and downhill the whole sad trajectory goes. She ends up trying to get her boobs removed and then realizes she still needs some sort of therapist letter to do so, which she seems to think is just so silly and unnecessary, I mean, what a waste of time!

    Early on in the book, this Nina goes to a "Ta-Ta, TaTas" party to which was a fundraiser to raise money for a friend "Greg"'s breast amputation. The invitation shows a double guillotine with breasts in it. And they think this is funny and cute.

    The whole tone of the book is really adolescent and girly. She goes on and on about boobs, bras, and clothes. That's something else that really stands out about the youth trans-trenders-how masculine they AREN'T. Think about it- how many actual men do you know who obsess about their underwear, their facial hair, and how to stand at the urinal? Honestly I skipped past a lot of the details about all this crap because it was just plain BORING!

    Of course, the author also throws in various comments about how trans is "beyond binary gender", how it's so liberating, etc. I think she thinks this passes for original thought.

    Don't waste your time reading this book unless you have some kind of weird sociological fascination with fads, trends, and "queer culture". It was one of those books that makes you ask yourself- Why the hell am I reading this?

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  9. What do you define as "transitioning?" - Are all these young people on T? Have they all had surgery? Have they changed their legal names and go solely by their new identities?

    With no disrespect to these kids, some may change their minds, some may socially transition and never undergo any kind of medical diagnosis or "interference" Some may decide to transition partway, some may decide to de-transition. Hell one of the usernames is "themaybeftm" - That hardly indicates transition.

    This in no way invalidates their current identity - or their future one. But to say they will all definitely go through the transition mill is a fallacy.

    My personal head -shake is that they're making youtube videos. Once it's on the net it doesn't come back, silly kids.

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  10. Oh, and they look like Beiber because he's a feminine featured pubescent boy, with essentially no difference yet to the facial shape and shoulder width of a pubescent girl. That will change through later puberty and he'll look more manly. Whether these kids do or not is yet unwritten.

    And he's considered cool.

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  11. They are making intro vids to document their transition, that in itself qualifies them as trans trenders.

    dirt

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  12. Oh, of course. Not whether they actually transition at all or not. That makes sense.

    DM - I suggest hanging around them gays, you'll find a lot of men obsessed by their underwear and hair. In fact, I suggest hanging around the English. The amount of hair product that goes onto my two (straight, male) English housemates' hair makes me want to buy stocks in Brylcreem.

    My words to young transguys though... Stop calling yourselves Aiden. You're all named Aiden. It's a dead giveaway that you're trans or GQ. No, really.

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  13. I also read "Nina Here nor There"
    and it had a completely female feel and voice to it, very teenage girlish, I can't imagine a therapist giving this girl a letter for surgery.

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  14. Just goes to show how much hatred and bigotry exists even in the gay community. You really should be ashamed of yourself, Dirt (aptly titled). It's not often that I come across such flagrant hypocrisy. You expect a hand of tolerance to be extended to you, yet you exploit and defame those who are a part of YOUR community and are every bit as deserving of respect. They call it LBGTQ for a reason--we're all in this together, and you are promoting discrimination whether you want to admit it or not. Do you really think posting these pictures and spouting off your feminist, trans-bashing tirades is going to make them feel valued as individuals? No, it's going to incite more fear and self-doubt and weaken the "female empowerment" you advocate. You claim to be an intelligent woman, but frankly, your actions prove otherwise. You are doing nothing but widening the rifts in a very important community--not only this, but disparaging perfect strangers, making them potential targets to violence and inequity, because they chose to live their lives differently than you do. It's clear you fail to grasp the harm that you're actually doing, or maybe you just don't give a flying fuck about these people to begin with... it certainly wouldn't surprise me. But if you don't watch your step, you're going to have one ugly lawsuit hanging over your head, which at this point you deserve. I almost pity you and all of your brainwashed enthusiasts. You're fighting a losing battle. You can't stop those from transitioning just like one can't stop you from being a lesbian. Get over it!

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  15. not everybody calls it LGBTQ

    that is a very new concept, one that was generally forced on homosexuals by transsexuals
    there is no reason T should be included with L or G or B... and Q? that means questioning right? that's just silly. how many more things should be added?

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  16. "I almost pity you and all of your brainwashed enthusiasts. You're fighting a losing battle. "

    Look who is talking! We are not buying what the gender cultists say and WE are brainwashed?? You and your deluded gender ideologists are fighting a losing battle.


    " But if you don't watch your step, you're going to have one ugly lawsuit hanging over your head"

    Wow really scary. At first all these trans persons who are sending death threats are going to have "one ugly lawsiut hanging over their head.".


    ". You can't stop those from transitioning just like one can't stop you from being a lesbian."

    Lol you are an angry and pathetic individual and you proved it with this statement. It shows that you are to lazy or to stupid the read this blog.
    Dirt isn't writing for those who are transition.

    quotes:1. "These posts have never been aimed at female transitioners, they have always been made to illustrate to lesbians and the general public just how serious an issue female transition has become post queer theory"

    2." I have said many times here before, I do not write for those floating in the ocean, but those still on the beaches who have a chance to be saved from drowning in the waters of female self hatred. If there are female transitioners who find something useful in my posts, great. But again, this is clearly a female centered space."

    Anonymus you've failed.

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  17. "you must stop this. This is wrong. It's just wrong"

    What is wrong? What is so "humiliating and dehumanizing"??

    These girls display themselves on youtube so that everyone can see them.

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  18. "It's clear you fail to grasp the harm that you're actually doing, or maybe you just don't give a flying fuck about these people to begin with... it certainly wouldn't surprise me. But if you don't watch your step, you're going to have one ugly lawsuit hanging over your head.."

    Harm? Compared to the harm being done by those telling women that if they behave in a certain way or like certain things, and dislike certain other things, that they CAN'T be a real woman, must have a male brain, and should then be hormonally and/or surgically mutilated in order to become as convincing a 'man' as society needs them to be?

    Let's face it, we have two main options here:

    1) Recognise that the problem is society with it's daft ideas on gender. If you don't or won't or can't fit their stupid stereotypes, you're going to have a hard time sometimes.

    2) What's wrong isn't society, but YOUR BODY. You have a male brain, and to make everyone else happy, you should mutilate your body in order to have it fit that male brain as much as possible. Of course, society still won't accept you, but you are at least too busy worrying about transition to worry about pointing out that society and gender stereotypes are crap. Rather than being at the forefront of challenging those stereotypes, you're instead just a genetic accident, and you should let society try and put you right using whatever dodgy hormonal and surgical means they want to experiment with at the moment.

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  19. It's definately a trend, and the FtM's know it too. One of those girls pictured has the YouTube name of "maybe FtM." I wonder what kind of pronouns her family and friends are supposed to be using.

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  20. Everytime I read someone writing that what Dirt does is wrong, I begin to wonder what exactly they mean. It is not like the links to the videos will make people go there and write hate comments to these young people. Everytime I see the "trans-trending" pictures, I think about these girls, and feel sadness, because they are victims of the patriarchal dogma (exactly what Anon at 10:35 is talking about!). It is time that someone shows the world that this trend has faces, that it is personal, that it is real! And not just some idea floating in limbo.

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  21. What's more scary than people "telling" you you must be a man if you act/dress/feel a certain way? I'll tell you what's more scary: the fact that no one is talking about YOU or telling you anything about yourself at all. Nobody actually gives a shit who you are are or what you do. Maybe that's the hardest thing for you all to accept: that this is not about you at all. I'm sorry that you feel left behind and ignored. I'm sorry that no one is kissing your ass for being a "mighty" butch. I'm sorry that former lesbians are finding transmen attractive as sex and life partners. I'm sorry that people's fear and of butchness has made it impossible for you to see clearly what IS about you and what is NOT. That's a direct result of your oppression and it's not your fault. Had you the opportunity to feel accepted for your butchness, you wouldn't rail against others simply not feeling like butches or females at all. I'm sorry that you've chosen to take personally what other people are doing and feeling with their own lives. I guess someone is forcing you all to seek out YouTube videos of pre-teens and read books by ftm's. It's embarrassing that a group of adult women feels appropriate judging a whole diverse group of people based on the self-involved videos of teens. Aaron Link, Max Wolf Valerio, and Jamison Green, amongst others, have all written much more thoughtful and critical accounts of their transition, some from feminist backgrounds. Yet you choose to use as your reference for ftm's the lowest common denominator in the media culture. Why? Because that's all you are intellectually capable of tackling. Because it would be too threatening to acknowledge that many ftm's are wise, thoughtful, witty, talented, passionate, and engaged human with much to offer this world. Do you yourselves actually have anything to offer this world?

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  22. "Do you yourselves actually have anything to offer this world?"
    Well, says a lot that some people have to make such extreme comments about our supposed use to the world, rather than actually addressing the points that are being made.

    Goodness, someone out there must feel that we are such a THREAT to their little fantasy, if they need to be this vitriolic.


    "Nobody actually gives a shit who you are are or what you do." If so, why are you bothering to post a reply? I think the person who wrote this obviously does care, else they wouldn't have bothered........

    "I'm sorry that you've chosen to take personally what other people are doing and feeling with their own lives." Except this is the great failing, isn't it, to just address this on an individual level (I must do what feels right for me), whilst failing to look at the wider perspective, in terms what this says about how society is still treating women and lesbians and butches, that so many young women see transition as not just desirable, but the only option.

    "Because it would be too threatening to acknowledge that many ftm's are wise, thoughtful, witty, talented, passionate, and engaged human with much to offer this world."

    And like any other group of human beings you could choose, some are also thoughtless, boring, or just plain stupid -- that's just humans for you, and really adds nothing to the discussion.

    I think the poster has missed the point, you don't have to be stupid to be deluded, especially not when the whole patriarchy and the medical profession, and the trans community, is supporting that particular delusion.

    i do find it strange though how often posters try to call those they disagree with stupid or intellectually incapable or uneducated -- which just sounds to me like a grown up version of a childhood taunt, and not especially hurtful or effective as a means of debate...........

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  23. Re: Anonymous @ August 2, 2011 3:30 PM- I seek information about the FTM trend because it has affected my family, friends, and community. That's why I read books and articles about this. I try to understand how transmen are similar and different from myself. I try to examine what would motivate them to go this route. I've known a number of trans people I've liked, including one of the authors you just mentioned.

    I realize that the You Tube kids are young, immature fad followers, so no, I wouldn't consider them a primary source of information about gender transition.

    I haven't read anything by Aaron Link, but I have read the works of Jamison Green and Max Wolf Valerio. They felt like they didn't fit in as women, something I can also relate to. They felt like they didn't fit in with the community- same here. Jamison Green especially felt a lot of flak & discrimination from other people as a woman and felt more accepted by the world as a man. Max Wolf Valerio's viewpoint was that of an avant-garde artist/poet type person, wanting to explore identity, break through boundaries & be edgy and transgressive, with lots of descriptions of feeling constantly horny due to testosterone. Yeah, I read these books trying to understand the whole FTM trip, and I have to say, I still have not heard an explanation of "why" that makes reasonable sense to me.

    The question I ask is: why can't a person just live the way the want to and be who they want to be in the natural body they were born in? Why be dependent on the medical profession- drugs & surgery- for your identity?

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  24. DM, I appreciate that you have taken the time to read ftm accounts from those who are more thoughtful and mature than teenagers on YouTube. I cannot answer your last question because I asked myself the same question for years. It's a question that you must answer for yourself. My identity has always been the same and physical transition did not change it. It only gave me the physicality I wanted. I don;t really believe in "male", "female", "butch", "femme" or any other word we have invented to describe nebulous identities. In the end, I wanted the secondary sex characteristics of a male and am content to walk through the world that way. I fully believe that a person CAN live the way they want to without drugs or surgery. I affirm non-transitioning people's identities, regardless of their physical state. For me, "drugs" is not such a very big deal after all. And surgery was a one time thing. Not such a big deal. I can deal with how I am in the world and I actually like it quite a bit. Don't make the mistake of believing that being trans is such a tragedy. That's a myth perpetuated by the mainstream.

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  25. why did you want the secondary sex characteristics of a male?

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  26. Also to call it mutilation is crule. Would you call a woman who gets a mastectomy due to cancer mutalted.

    Or someone who gets tattoos and peircing a nose job or a tummy tuck mutalating themselfs. It is all a way to express ones self. To have your insides and outside line up. I relize cancer is a whole different ball park, but if transitioning is what makes you happy then great its knowone elses damn buessness.

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  27. Have you got your lawsuite yet dirt.
    Should know better to mess with someone who has a lawyer for a dad.

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  28. Posting pics of young girls kinda makes you a predator.

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  29. Its all skin and words, in a day and age when someone girl or boy strait gay or other can change there bodys and name to make them feel better why not, i respect everyones right to there own opinions and what not but there is enough hate in the world.
    I am not a young dumb teenager, I am licenced in a medical feild and to belittle this as a trend clearly shows peoples unwillingness to reserch and learn about anyone who is different and dumb it down to hate and giveing in to a male dominated world.
    An as an educated person i know i shouldnt feed the fire, but it needs to be said, spreading hate creates violence in a already violent world, you dont want theis girls to be a part of your comunity fine, accept then that they are there own comunity. 
    As far as useing youtube we are gettin to a point where the 20 year olds and up are tecknology based and use blogs and youtube as a way to reach out or to get feelings out they might no be able to share anywhere else.
    An yes there is little long term reserch on the effects of the drugs and horomones but the same can be said for many life saveing drugs, in my profession we use ameoderone wich is a life saveing drug and the only way to test the long term effects of the drug compaires to lidocane is human use and testing. So maybe someday there will be a drug that can change brain chemestry, and yes there have been autopsys that have proven it is brain chemestry, than will help theis indiviuals without "transition" .
    But science has not gotten that far.

    I MUCH prefer theis girls transition and call themselfs whatever they want if thats what makes them happy as an alternative to suicide or self harm. 

    To say they shouldnt is no better than sending a gay kid to a pray the gay away camp.

    Maybe its not a fad, maybe we live in a day an age
    Where they can express there feeling an seek help
    In whatever way they choose.  Im sure there are a few who regret or have more mental issues goin on the the trans stuff but to brand a who group because of the few is to say all gays have aids and are whores.

    Im just saying i can understand the frustration of being called a man or masculin from a butch prospective ( fyi "butch" is a male word wich its origin is a male givin name) i get not wanting to be mistaken as trans or haveing people think cuz of the way you dress that you want to be a man.

    It is still no reason to use theis girls pics and place them on a website for people who are angry with the trans comunity. You can express your opinions all you want without using pictures of theis girls.

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  30. DM

    I think Dirt posted a picture long ago of Nina/Nick. I believe it was a top surgery picture. The surgical scars were quite crooked with a young female with a huge smile on her face. Nina/Nick's blog even has posts about fear of using the male restroom after taking hormones and being annoyed to actually stop using the female restroom. There wasn't any indication that Nina/Nick was fearful of transphobic abuse just the realization of having to actually be well a guy...

    I was also annoyed about the fact that Nina/Nick moved and then discovered the whole "I'm actually a man" thing. There was another blogger who explained the same thing. Matter of fact, its on the Transgeneration documentary. It does happen that way. People assume that is because secretly deep down they knew something was wrong then it suddenly comes out. They don't think of the idea of how today's young generation of LGBT people are LABEL OBSESSED.

    I say this because I too became obsessed.

    Its not always LGBTQ either. I have seen LGBTQQAIP. Hell I've seen a list of the names for sexuality and gender that young "queer" people use. It actually gave me a headache. No wonder it was so painful for me to come up with a label. No wonder it became too painful for many of my friends. It's too ridiculous!

    It doesn't stop there. I read the "Testosterone Files" by Max Wolf Valerio. It was such a long time ago. But I remember correctly there was this whole concept discussing how s/he would tend to date heterosexual women. These women would explain to Max that Max came off more "male" than "female." Of course, think about it, do heterosexual women normally date lesbians? NO! Do they have no idea of butch identity? Absolutely not!

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  31. Jamison Green mentions people who were born with certain birth sex issues (the word is banned here). It made no sense for that information to be in the book. It was obviously used as a tool to make transsexuality valid in Jamison's eyes. A strong issue doesn't need to piggy back off another.

    But I think it would be interesting to see some of the "BIG" names discussed instead of some of these young people all the time. We get our information from them.

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  32. @ 5:59

    Did you just compare transmales ridding themselves of breast tissue (typically healthy tissue) to a woman with breast cancer (unhealthy tissue that could kill her)? This is an issue about body issues/mental issues. This isn't the same whatsoever.

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  33. "Also to call it mutilation is crule. Would you call a woman who gets a mastectomy due to cancer mutalted."

    Because that is how the cancer survivor may feel about herself, that she has had to have part of her body removed for the sake of her overall health. Even more, a woman who has had a mastectomy when a better surgeon or better healthcare would have performed a lumpectomy instead might rightly feel that she has been mutilated.

    When it comes to trans surgery, the point is that it is the removal of healthy tissue, or replacing it with non-functional surgical attempts at replicas.

    Tattoes and piercing is a red herring, since in MOST cases, what is left is still functional, just decorated or with a bit of a hole in it!

    "It is all a way to express ones self. To have your insides and outside line up." Ah, here it comes again, the same tired idea that you can have a mans brain in a female body..............

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  34. "The question I ask is: why can't a person just live the way the want to and be who they want to be in the natural body they were born in? Why be dependent on the medical profession- drugs & surgery- for your identity?"

    DM - You sound genuine about your troubles, and maybe willing to understand a little of where I come from.

    I could not be happy in my identity and the body I was born in, because those two things are seen as fundamentally different. I have never identified as female. I don't enjoy female-only spaces, I don't empathise with women as a part of that group, but as an other. But my body says "female" - and yes, society has a rule that the gender we identify with shall line up with the sexual bits we have.

    So I could not cheerfully live my life, identifying as male, being unconditionally accepted into male spaces, and not being seen as female. When I tried, I found two roadblocks. Firstly, a woman who is considered to be too masculine identifying must be a lesbian, which I have never been. I got that from everyone - especially lesbians who would encourage me to accept myself and come out, denying my insistence that I really was not attracted to women. On the other hand, a woman who identifies as heterosexual must conform to standards of femininity, or she will cease to be able to partake in groups of men without the "lesbian" card coming out. I dressed in drag, or so it felt, to have my orientation recognised. I was called lesbian to have my gender identity partway recognised.

    I don't depend on drugs and surgery for my identity. I depend on the drugs and surgery to have my identity recognised by anyone. Also, because I have body dysphoria. Because I want to rid myself of the growths on my chest. And it annoys me deeply that to do that I do have to go through T, and social transition, and everything like that (the first I was unenthusiastic about, it was another step, and the second I did anyway) when if I wanted to inflate them to gargantuan proportions I could just go right ahead and do it.

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  35. Anon@7:46am,

    What informed you dysphoria? Thats what isnt being asked by anyone.

    You say before transition you were a straight "masculine" female, which indicates you bought into the gender straight jacket, rather than worked to dismantle it. Females arent masculine. Because you carried your feminine body differently than maybe many other females, in no way makes you "masculine".

    Your transitioning for the same reason any other woman does, misogyny and conformity to patriarchal standards of what a "woman" "should be".

    You cannot say you tried living differently as a female, when clearly you are unaware of what informs the very notions you have of yourself.

    dirt

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  36. " and yes, society has a rule that the gender we identify with shall line up with the sexual bits we have."

    Says it all really -- society has daft rules, and punishes those of us who don't fit.

    Although I'd also add that society has daft rules about gender meaning something, and gender we identify with meaning something as well. If we didn't have such strict notions of two genders, then there wouldn't be anything to identify WITH.

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  37. And therein lies the problem with the "trans" mind. They accept societies notions of the gender straight jacket. Who says your gender doesnt "match up with your bits"?

    dirt

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  38. Ah, Dirt, you misquote me. I never said I was masculine, merely that I was perceived as too masculine for the sex chromosomes I have.

    To be honest, I have no idea what is masculine and what is feminine. Only that the group "women" has never been one which I have identified with, and the group "men" was one I have always identified with. So, of course I have never tried living as a female, merely as someone the label female has been thrust upon.

    What informed my dysphoria? what informs the very notions I have of myself? Many factors, obviously. My own, personal feelings towards myself and who I am, which is what I take you consider least important. Societal structures that dictate anyone with breasts is a woman, thus stripping me wholesale of my identity. My biology, whereby breast tissue is extremely painful for ten out of 30 days. My personal aesthetics with regards to my own body.

    Unfortunately the notions which inform the self have been in the realm of philosophers for centuries and the best they can come up with is "I think, therefore I am." Dirt, you cannot know the myriad of thoughts, feelings, environment and biology which informs my sense of self - And neither can I, fully. I accept that, but the notion that someone else can know more about my internal states than me is wrong.

    BadDyke, I absolutely agree with you. the binary gender trope that we are all caught in, and the idea that there are differences between us, the fact that there is a "one-or-other" mentality is awful. There needs to be one less or a thousand more equally valid ways to identify with a gender. But I don't live in that world. I live in this one. And my ideologies versus living a life I can accept on my own level, I picked the latter. Deride me as weak, patriarchal, misogynistic, whatever. I am probably all of those in some small measure, measures which I try to stamp on, or unpack, or whatever term you wish to use.

    But I
    could have given in to patriarchy much more easily by putting on a dress, heels, makeup and letting biology and society destroy my identity entirely. If I now live a lie, it is a far more honest lie than before.

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  39. " But I could have given in to patriarchy much more easily by putting on a dress, heels, makeup and letting biology and society destroy my identity entirely. "

    Um, women don't have to do those things you know. Not liking those things does not make one a 'man.'

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  40. I never ment to dissrespect or demean breast cancer.

    A more propper example would be liposuction or plastic sergery in general. Breast cancer was a innapropriate comparison.

    And a male brain is not a tired idea:
    2. Transsexualism can be considered to be a neuro-developmental condition. Several sexually dimorphic nuclei have been found in the hypothalamic area of the brain (Swaab & Fliers, 1985; Allen & Gorski, 1990; Swaab et al, 2001). Of particular interest is the sexually dimorphic limbic nucleus called the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) which appears to become fully mature in the human brain by early adulthood. In males the volume of this nucleus is almost twice as large as in females and its number of neurons is almost double (Zhou et al, 1995; Kruijver et al 2000; Chung et al 2002).

    3. In the case of transsexualism this nucleus has a sex-reversed structure. This means that in the case of trans women (n=7), the size of this nucleus and its neuron count is in the same range as that of women in the general population. In the only available brain of a trans man, the structure of this nucleus was found to be in the range of males in the general population. It is hypothesised that this male-like BSTc will be present in other trans men as well. These findings were independent of sexual orientation and of the use of exogenous sex hormones. It is inferred that the sexually dimorphic BSTc is an important part of a neural circuit involved in the development and establishment of gender identity (Kruijver et al, 2000).

    Its not a myth.

    Same as being gay, born this way!

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  41. A fair example would be a biological male is born and for
    Some genetic missdoing he develops breast tissue, they cause him no physical harm, but he has them removed, whould you berade him for wanting to feel right and not only to stop mentaly abuse himself but be abused by others.

    I just beleave evryone had the right to do as they please and not fear being rejected by the gay comunity or strait.
    That would be the ideal world.
    But that is not the world we live in, so the gay comunity wich also is discriminated against should stand by an support the "trans" comunity, you dont have to include them, but at least respect there choice.

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  42. It's been said here time and time again that there is not a place for non-traditional heterosexual women (the women who are not hyper "feminine".) So it is no surprise that someone comes out as a gay transguy. Heterosexual men who are attracted to non-traditional straight women are seen as oddballs. They even try to hide it. It's considered shameful or that they are just secretly gay (since these women "look like men.") etc. Plus women are always told that they will just grow out of their tomboyish/butch ways and one day dream of being dolled up in makeup, wear dresses, and get a husband etc.

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  43. 7:57 PM

    That is not a fair example. Its an inadequate example at that. Your example parallels the same discussions about a certain group that has been banned from discussion here because way too many people wish to drag others into the situation. The male you described does not have GID.

    A male being born with a hormone issue is not the same as a female born without a hormone issue taking hormones of the opposite sex and/or removing healthy breast tissue because they wish to resemble the opposite sex.

    GID hurts people severely not to say that a man with breast would not have body shame. But the society's idea of not only gender's physical appearance, but adding emotional traits and mannerisms would make it weigh a lot more.

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  44. Ok, its clearly like arguing with a wall, its like trying to convince a strait person of why you are gay.

    I know who I am, I am tollerent and excepting of all even you girls who are not excepting of us.

    Im simply saying, look at the science. Try to understand the feeling we have, why would we seek out horomones and go through YEARS of therapy the pain of sergery only to be ridiculed for it if it clearly wasnt life or death for most of us.

    I tryed to kill myself when i was in 5th grade latter again when i was 17 hopeing god would put me in the right body. An out of fear or rejection by thoughs i loved. I love lesbians and butch girls espeshaly, they are some
    Of my best friends. But i date strait girls, my girlfriend is a strait girl i place no threat to the lesbian comunity. An its painfull to see issues that you clearly could not understand

    enless you are one bein dissmissed as a fad or giveing in to male sterotypes. When it is so clearly more than that.

    Like i said, its all words and skin, whats between our legs or on our chest is our buessness an ours alone.

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  45. & I assume the above poster was deemed mentally competent enough to transition?

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  46. let's say someone is a muslim (or a jew in certain places) and doesn't want to reveal this fact for fear of their safety- should they also be grouped in with homosexuals?

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  47. (sorry, posted that under wrong thread)

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  48. lesbianplusfeministAugust 5, 2011 at 3:55 PM

    "I could not be happy in my identity and the body I was born in, because those two things are seen as fundamentally different. I have never identified as female. I don't enjoy female-only spaces, I don't empathise with women as a part of that group, but as an other. But my body says "female" - and yes, society has a rule that the gender we identify with shall line up with the sexual bits we have."

    Jesus Christ. It doesn't make any sense to "identify" or "not identify" as female or male because male and female are biological categories, not some style, perspective, preference or state of mind that you can pick and choose. You don't have to like female-only spaces or anything else to be female. You don't get any choice about it; it's something you're born with. And no, society does not have the rule that "the gender we identify with shall line up with the sexual bits we have." Identifying with a gender is a queer concept, and only a small group of people on this planet subscribe to it. Society has a rule that people of a given SEX conform to certain dress and behavior codes; perhaps that is the rule you are referring to? It seems to be a rule you support, seeing as how you think being female is somehow magically connected with certain preferences and perspectives such as enjoying female-only spaces, empathizing with females, and goddess-knows what else.

    "There needs to be one less or a thousand more equally valid ways to identify with a gender."

    Hey, how about no gender at all? Why do you think MORE gender would make things better?

    "Unfortunately the notions which inform the self have been in the realm of philosophers for centuries and the best they can come up with is "I think, therefore I am."

    Try sociologists instead, or just common sense. We've known for quite a while that culture informs the notion of the self quite a bit, and your discussion of your feelings and experiences is an excellent example.

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  49. Ya I am mentaly compatent, an hold a collage degree. I was a teenager then without the skills or suport to deal with issues, im a paramedic and an RN so dont you dare question my competency.

    I tryed to post the medical FACKTS but she wont let them post. You seem to be ignoring the science an lookin for any flaw to atack. You might as well argue with "cuz thats what god said" because your arguments are as valad as that.

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  50. Lesibianplusfeminist, you are saying the exact same things I hear from all of society - you were born female, thus you must feel and identify as female, because that's just BIOLOGY!11! (Then you call for sociology as the answer later...) No, I don't feel female. I don't associate the struggle for womens' rights as the struggle for my rights, I don't associate the way women are supposedly socialised as how I am socialised. I don't feel I have the same, fundamental things in common with women as other women (especially those who espouse WBW theory) tell me I should.

    And if you think that "society does not have the rule that "the gender we identify with shall line up with the sexual bits we have." Then you should speak to my brother, who has a chromosomal condition the name of which is banned by this blog. He has always been expected to identify with his male phenotype and not the two-thirds of his XXY genotype. Fortunately, he does. If he did not, any cry that he has all the working DNA, the biology, of a female would be brushed aside.
    (note: I do not compare transness to this chromosomal condition.It causes my brother many other, different biological and sociological problems and anyone who diminishes this deserves the harshest put-downs possible.)

    "Hey, how about no gender at all? Why do you think MORE gender would make things better?"
    I didn't say "more gender" I said "more genders" Plural. To have more equally valid ways of identifying in an important area of our lives as as a human being is as good an idea as having one way, thus making it non-relevant.

    "Try sociologists instead, or just common sense. We've known for quite a while that culture informs the notion of the self quite a bit"

    Please. One sentence after that I mention "environment" - that is, cultural and societal environment. It informs the sense of self. but it is not all that informs the sense of self, nor can we ever know the precise level to which it informs that sense of self in any individual.

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  51. "...you were born female, thus you must feel and identify as female"

    what i think is that there is no such thing as feeling female or male- that is all societal.

    and as has been said before, intersex is a physical disorder, trans is a mental.

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  52. "thus you must feel and identify as female, because that's just BIOLOGY!"

    Except no one here is saying that, because 'feeling' female makes no sense, and nor does 'identifying' as female.

    You're born with one type of body, some people go along with the way that society thinks people with that sort of body should behave, whereas others of us say that what society says is nonsense, as are societys notions of gender, thank you very much.

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  53. lesbianplusfeministAugust 7, 2011 at 9:41 AM

    "Lesibianplusfeminist, you are saying the exact same things I hear from all of society - you were born female, thus you must feel and identify as female, because that's just BIOLOGY!11!"

    No, you've missed the point entirely. The point is that there is no such thing as "feeling" female (or male) because male and female are not feelings, they are physical states of being. They are not states of mind. They are "just biology" as in, nothing else. No feelings, no likes or dislikes, no special way of dressing, nothing, zilch, nada but biological classifications. Can I make it any clearer?

    "It informs the sense of self. but it is not all that informs the sense of self,"

    I never said that it was.

    "I said "more genders" Plural. To have more equally valid ways of identifying in an important area of our lives as as a human being is as good an idea as having one way, thus making it non-relevant."

    "More genders" isn't all that different from "more gender." How about people just be able to be themselves instead having to "identify" with more or less prisons of conformity that society is offering? What I don't understand is, if you see a problem with the system of gender, and you want to suggest something better, why suggest a system in which there are just more choices within the same bad model? Why not say, "to hell with the model itself?" This is yet another reason why certain trans and/or queer people are seen as upholding patriarchy: instead of NO gender, they want MORE genders.

    "nor can we ever know the precise level to which it informs that sense of self in any individual."

    Completely irrelevant. We don't need to know the "precise level." The fact that someone is basing their identity on or about to alter their body due to fucked up messages they have internalized from society ON ANY LEVEL is a problem that needs to be addressed.

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  54. This is such an interesting conversation, and like so many that we have had over the years. In the 50s and 60s you had to pick butch or femme. Then the second wave of feminism came and it was deemed politically incorrect and patriarchal to be "like a man" or like a woman", one should be simply lesbian. Many conformed in agreement with the argument. The pendulum swung. And swung back, butch and femme coming back into favor, and is swinging still and butch now decide that they are "boys", or bois, or whatever they choose to call themselves and the femmes are determined to stay with their "man". It's not unlike the shoe issue. Remember that one? Back in the 70's there was a big push for women to stop wearing high heels because they could not run from their rapist, and now the pendulum has swung back and the shoes are higher than ever, and we still cant run from our rapists! I do think that probably there are shades of gender, and that probably there are some people who feel uncomfortable in their bodies, but the explosion is completely out of line with reality. It really does look like misogyny continuing to rear it's ugly head, this time in the form of "change your gender, change your life".

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  55. That's one hell of a handsome man in the upper right-hand corner. Damn! I, a straight woman, can full-heartedly say that.

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