Change Your World-NOT your Body

Thursday, May 5, 2011

How to MAKE a lesbian LIKE [a] Transman


While skimming my blog's stats this morning, I came across this winning screen cap. A transman had the audacity to google "how to make a lesbian like transman". In other words, how can a transman force a lesbian to like him in a romantic manner? Because of course lesbians have no fucking agency of our own, we're just historical fuck objects for male masturbatory fantasies and now apparently fuck objects for chemically acquired male privileged transmen! Fuck objects presumed or expected to be at the beck, call and cock of every transman who was previously was a lesbian!


First, it is impossible to force anyone to "like" or fall in love with another. Second, lesbians do not date/fall in love with men or women who pretend to be men. We desire, date and fall in love with women, thats why we're lesbians and not straight! Chemically acquired male privilege may get transmen a lot of things in this world, male approval, male/female respect, better education opportunities, better jobs/job opportunities etc etc etc, but one thing it wont get you? Lesbians!

dirt
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55 comments:

  1. Strange, why should a lesbian be attracted to a man??

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  2. I really can't find a purpose to this post. Considering your previous writing on lesbians and trans[men], and the implication therein that trans[men] are interested in lesbians, these searches shouldn't be something rare enough to make a single post and screencap about.

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  3. When you have your very own blog Anon, you can decide what is post worthy, on this blog I decided that.

    dirt

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  4. wait are you sure they didn't mean "like" as in a platonic, accepting sense? Not "like" romantically?

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  5. Even if they did mean it in a romantic sense, I see it as sort of a harmless statement.

    How many times have you seen/heard a twelve year old girl say "omigosh how can I make him like me?" I doubt any harm was meant by it.

    Though it would be helpful to know more about the statement at hand.

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  6. When lesbians are believed to have no agency but the ones males provide them, thats isnt "harmless" Ariel and in the end two females get hurt, the lesbian who would naturally be insulted and the transman who is lonely/horny.

    dirt

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  7. Ariel,

    Exactly! They are comparable to a 12 year old- maturity wise.

    Although it is telling that you must say "like a 12 year old GIRL"...

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  8. I'm sure the person didn't mean it in the way you are portraying as in MAKING anybody do anything.

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  9. The women who date transmen are often the hipster type who want to be "different" and who see themselves as bi, pansexual or queer. Lesbians want lesbians, and straight women want men.

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  10. Or they are people who love who they love, and dont give a shit about stereotypes.

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  11. Sorry dude, you're a "bro" now, go find a straight girl who likes a "man" with a pussy.

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  12. I'm not insulted when my straight male friends are attracted to me. In fact it's kind of flattering. They know they don't have a chance but maybe some of them hold out hope, I don't know. It's like when I had a huge crush on a straight girl, for a long time I held out hope that she was secretly bi.

    I just don't know how you reached your conclusion by the information you provided. Maybe it was just a bad example.

    And @anon 11:03
    ...teenage boys say stuff like that too. Hell, a guy my age said something to that effect recently. Desperation/unrequited love makes us say and do stupid things - just a bad choice of words in this case though.

    But in any case, I still don't see any evidence that the person in question was trying to MAKE a lesbian fall in love with them. In fact, since they referenced this blog, I assume they meant, "How can I make a lesbian (dirt) accept transmen and maybe even like them as a person." Again, just a bad choice of words.

    I feel like you guys are nitpicking on the word "make". I'm one to talk, but still...

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  13. that's the dumbest assumption i've heard yet. the poor kid (and you can't know it was a transman) probably has a crush on a lesbian and is trying to figure out ways to woo her.

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  14. Seems like there are more than a few femmes who say they are looking for a butch or an FtM. Like they are interchangeable. How many butches transition because they feel they are in competition with FtM's? Walk down the street holding her hand and no one gets mad because they all think you are a man? How compelling is that for both of them?

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  15. LMCS,
    you're totally right
    in any online 'dating' site you will find many women who say things like 'butch, boi, andro, ftm welcome'
    it seems that the ftm's accept that they are pretty much considered women by lesbians who humor them for a time

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  16. agree with last two posters.

    it's hella annoyin when people go around lumping butches and ftms in the same group. i see it all the time. people meet me (butch lesbian) and just start automatically using male pronouns. wtf?!

    they are slowly stealing MY
    (I)dentiy.

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  17. Who wants lesbians! Im a transmen who's into transmen! Im queer that is all, i just like anything other than straight, and NEVER wish to have any sort of Hetro normative relationship.

    So you butch's go play with your femms , im gonna fins me a queer who can role play ; )

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  18. Now THIS is absurd. You've reached a new low, Dirt.

    First of all, I Google all kinds of things all the time just out of curiosity. If I'm trying to answer a question about, say, WWII, I might Google "Nazi war propaganda make children into Nazis" if I wanted to know more about the Hitler youth. That doesn't mean I want to make children into Nazis!!! I'm a Jewish lesbian for Pete's sake. I'd be horrified if someone used my Google searches against me. Google searches are just searches, just for information; I probably run 25 or so a day, on all kinds of topics. Your monitoring and using those searches as some kind of "evidence" really borders on creepy big brother tactics.

    Second, as others have pointed out, there are many more than one possible interpretations of the words in that search string. One transman (if it even was a transman) Googling about how to get a lesbian to like him doesn't imply that all transmen are trying to FORCE lesbians to let them have sex with them. You're really, really reaching on that one, and it just shows how weak your position is.

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  19. Ache Boy-

    way to go with the generalizations there!

    um not all butches are into femmes.

    and what makes you think lesbians can't role play?

    durrrrrr

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  20. 'ache boy' is a perfect example of girls transitioning thinking it makes them cool and different- they don't see they're actually perpetuating regressive norms in the name of 'queer' whilst destroying themselves

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  21. (they just seem like self-hating lesbians to me the trans-man couplings- like lesbian is not rad enough to be- they're total suckers, i sort of feel bad for them)

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  22. If the mere *presence* of ftm's in the world is capable of causing such a flap with your fragile identities, then maybe you need to revisit how solid your identities are.

    Newsflash: Trans people have always existed and have been embraced in many, many cultures - even matriarchal ones and ones with a higher regard for women. Gender variance is separate from same-sex attraction. Gay nationalism is just as evil as any other nationalism. You are like desperate little gender-Hitlers. Shouting about how trans people are ruining everything and how oppressed you are.

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  23. make ≠ force

    -

    "Strange, why should a lesbian be attracted to a man??"

    oh I thought transmen are actually still women? (according to dirt) So why not?

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  24. "Trans people have always existed and have been embraced in many, many cultures..."

    Do you think they've always existed in enormous and exponentially growing numbers as they do today (FTMs specifically)?


    "Gender variance is separate from same-sex attraction."

    I agree with this point and I believe that T should not be included with L-G-B (each of which are quite distinct from one another themselves).

    Also, I do not feel at all like a victim as a lesbian (a boyish one often mistaken for 'genderqueer'); personally my issue with the the multitudes of transitioning young girls is just the losing of so many of them (as if the world needs more men or 'men,' seriously (even real guys mostly agree that males are generally icky- only the transboys seem to romanticize masculinity in this inaccurate way- similar to the distorted femininity of the MTF)) when they could have grown into something more advanced, a nuanced woman who doesn't have to conform...

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  25. Yes, I do agree that more young people are transitioning than ever, and I know that this is because of access, visibility, and social support. But I don't feel qualified to tell these kids who they are, or even convinced that their gender identity or physical status makes up the bulk of who they are as humans, or what they have to offer the world. Of course transitioning is going to set them at odds with many people and they are going to take up more space with that identity, just as gay people who have just come out tend be fervently and passionately gay for awhile. I'm also pretty sure that there are hidden bisexuals, hidden trans-people, and gender-non-conforming straight people hanging out in the gay community because they cannot find support for their identities elsewhere. People that would otherwise not be completely "gay" but also feel alienated from the straight world for their genders or sexuality. Having community is a powerful and intoxicating drug and subverting parts of your real identity for periods of time is worth it to some people, I guess. I don't have the energy or willingness for that any more.

    As far as romanticizing men, I agree with what you are saying to some extent. I think your observations are astute. Many people will be instantly drawn to the idea of muscles and sideburns, but have a much harder time coping with other elements of malehood, which is not always pretty or easy. I cannot agree that a nuanced woman is more "advanced" in any way, or that transitioning precludes advancing one's thoughtfulness or observational skills. Nor is being a transsexual a way to conform. I reject those last assertions because crossing gender *is* human behavior. As such, every human can claim their own personal intellect, critique, struggle, and story, which cannot be erased by being trans. As for those little ftm dudes who primp and preen, I am not more critical of their process than I am of any teenage male. But perhaps those kids would be open to more nuanced, advanced thought about gender if they were not being told they are not who they say they are. Who would react openly to that? Would you? Have you considered that the mistrust found on this blog is more capable of firmly polarizing this divide than it is of healing it?

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  26. "they are slowly stealing MY
    (I)dentiy."

    It is not possible for anyone to steal YOUR identity, as YOUR IDENTITY is unique to YOU.

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  27. Because Googling "How to make lesbians realize that transmen don't threaten their jam or negate their own identities" is too long.

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  28. transmen's identities don't seem especially unique to them, individually, as they all seem to become very much alike through the very much identical 'treatments'

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  29. Anon@4:41,

    Per usual, try reading what I actually write rather than what your brain interprets.

    Trans(men) during their never ending transition are no longer women, however they will always be females.

    dirt

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  30. Geez how disgusting turns out the phobias. Fear, fear, fear is all I see in this place... why is soooo complicated let the others be? nobody who claims being acepting makes this low-nonsense-bullshit...Youre not different from religious bastards who point out at you and claim to know the true about what its right and whatnot

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  31. anon at 5:58:

    "they are slowly stealing MY
    (I)dentiy."

    It is not possible for anyone to steal YOUR identity, as YOUR IDENTITY is unique to YOU.

    Clearly you didn't get my sarcasm with the whole (I)dentity. I don't believe in gender identity first and foremost.
    I am a lesbian woman period dot.
    I was joking in that all these tranz do is talk about how people are not accepting their identities, etc. Meanwhile the all encompassing queer community is wiping away my 'identity' of being ok being a butch WOMAN, by automatically assuming that because I present in such a butch fashion, that I must be tranz.

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  32. 'Trans(men) during their never ending transition are no longer women, however they will always be females.'

    Yes. Bravo. Gold star for you Captain bleedin' obvious. Transition does NOT end. In all honesty I don't believe the journey to womanhood or manhood has a destination either. People who claim genital surgery is going to 'make them a wo/man' are deluded.

    Transmen cannot escape their female biology - as much as we wish to. The problem is female/woman are used interchangably. Linguistically it would be far easier to separate them. Don't argue what the dictionary says - because the arguement doesn't stand. Words evolve and change, and language is fluid, not set in stone.

    And in relation to the actual point here, if you're a man, why force yourself into lesbian spaces anyway? Go and look for straight girls/gay guys. It's out of fear, which is understandable but not excusable.

    You seem to think you're running some hard hitting crusade that will completely change attitudes of transsexuality, when really, you're coming out with some of the most utterly obvious, inane points our community is ever likely to read. Must try harder.

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  33. or it could be how to make a lesbian like transman

    as in how to be a lesbian when youre really trans, which is what you want people to do. Which is also completely wrong because lesbian and trans are two different thinghs

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  34. First of all this is all wrong. There are lesbians who love trans men simply because they can't stand biological men or other reasons. I'm not saying that all like trans men because that's not true. Women aren't fuck objects either so don't think that all men feel that way even though most do, or appear so. I am a male and I don't believe women were put here for sex. I honestly understand how you feel because I can't stand how some people think women are only for sex when they aren't.

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  35. Anon@8:32,

    Clearly you need educate yourself on the likes of systematic misogyny and the structures put in place and kept in place by men.

    Second, lesbians desire and fall in love with other women. Trans(men) while always remaining female, once on T, are no longer women.

    dirt

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  36. "The women who date transmen are often the hipster type who want to be "different" and who see themselves as bi, pansexual or queer."

    Is there something wrong with being bisexual now?

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  37. anon @ 5:41-
    "Is there something wrong with being bisexual now?"

    um basically yeah. as people who witnessed the whole trend hype of claiming 'bisexual' in the 90's & 00's- a elated number, compaired to those who are actually bisexual for the majority of their lives, instead of the masses that claimed that identity for a couple of years in their young adulthood. we watched that trend, and we watched it fade as these women, (the majority who claim bi are women)- grew up, really learned who they were, and picked a side.

    so yeah we can compare the trends in claiming bi and claiming tranz. it all screams the same story.

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  38. Q - how to make a lesbian like a transman?

    A - get a doctor to perform a full frontal lobotomy on her, visit a parallel universe, or go to sleep and start dreaming...

    I don't personally think the question was that sinister though, I didn't think it was a big deal, perhaps a td deluded at most...

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  39. @Anon at 10:23 -

    I know being "bi" was the in thing for a while, the trendy thing to do; that bisexual chic/ explosion of bisexuals, the bisexual hype. But for whatever reason, some commenters on Dirt's blog, and possibly Dirt herself (she'll need to clarify on that one?) seem to think that all bisexuals are "fake" bisexuals, that bisexuals don't exist, that bisexual isn't a valid identity.

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  40. Clearly people (mostly women) can stomach fucking both men and women, most will however later fall in love with/partner with the opposite sex.

    Is bisexuality a "valid identity"? For the time the person (woman) is engaging with sex with both men and women.

    That however doesnt make it a sexual orientation.

    dirt

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  41. "Clearly people (mostly women) can stomach fucking both men and women, most will however later fall in love with/partner with the opposite sex.

    Is bisexuality a "valid identity"? For the time the person (woman) is engaging with sex with both men and women.

    That however doesnt make it a sexual orientation."

    This doesn't make sense, Dirt. If a bisexual partners someone of the opposite sex, they're still bisexual. For bisexuals it isn't about "stomaching" - bisexuals can enjoy sex with both males and females. They (the average bisexual) /enjoy/ sex, they don't just "stomach" it.

    Bisexuality is as valid an identity as "lesbian". Bisexuality is having the capacity to be sexually attracted to men and women. Bisexuals are sexually attracted to both men and women. That makes it a sexual orientation.

    I am bisexual. I know plenty of others. My sexual orientation is bisexual.

    I don't understand why you seem to think "straight" and "gay"/"lesbian" are the only 'valid' states of being. But I thank you for answering my question, I was curious as to your opinion.

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  42. Sexual orientation implies which sex, male or female a person is romantically oriented towards, and you stated for you ( a bisexual) its more to do with sex (fucking), therefore your bisexuality isnt a sexual orientation.

    I'm speaking only of shared sexualities (gay/lesbian-hetro), relationships where both parties have the capacity to fall permanently in love.

    dirt

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  43. Sexual orientation implies which sex, male or female, a person is sexually attracted/inclined towards (or is that sexuality and I'm mixing up terms?). "Homosexual" implies being sexually oriented towards people of the same sex. It usually (and in common use) also implies a romantic inclination towards people of the same sex. (not everyone feels sexual attraction to people, apparently, but still feel romantic inclination: in this case you would say "homoromantic". However as I am not an asexual and asexuality is a different subject I don't feel getting into it is sensical!)

    Since "homosexual" in common use usually means both homo/sexual/ and homo/romantic/ feelings, it follows that "bisexual" in common use usually means both bisexual and biromantic feelings. While I did say it means I am sexually attracted towards both sexes (I was trying to give only a basic definition for ease of communication), when I said "I am bisexual" I mean I am sexually and romantically inclined towards both males and females.

    I understand that from what I said that "it being more to do with sex (fucking)" could possibly be derived, but as a point of information, I and the average bisexual are both sexually and romantically inclined to males and females. It actually isn't more to do with sex for me - I prefer romantic attachments (which, as a sexual person, as opposed to an asexual, usually implies/involves sex) over purely sexual ones. And even if it were more to do with sex, it is still a sexual orientation/sexuality.

    Your comment reminds me of the misconception/biphobic notion that bisexuals ('the average bisexual') are all about sex, or just want sex, or are addicted to sex or only in it for sex. Or sex-crazed (and similar). As I said, this is a misconception; it is not true, please don't (directed at the general 'you', not anyone in specific) make the assumption for bisexuals it is "more about sex (fucking)".

    I am a bisexual. For your clarification this means: I am a bisexual. I am sexually and romantically inclined/oriented towards both males and females. I understand that a person cannot be in a "bisexual relationship" (makes no sense, in terms of the language), but I (and the average bisexual) have the capacity to permanently fall in love. I recognize that falling permanently in love does not somehow erode my sexuality or negate the fact that I am bisexual.

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  44. Same Anon as before, sorry!

    "I'm speaking only of shared sexualities (gay/lesbian-hetro), relationships where both parties have the capacity to fall permanently in love."
    Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other through talking about slightly different things and having different meanings for all the labels? So much terminology, it almost seems silly.

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  45. Bisexuality is transitory, hetero/homo arent, thats all I'm saying.

    Interesting how there are numbers of bisexuals under the age of 30, yet none or next to none over the age of 70. Statistically more than half who ID as bi, ID as straight within 5 years. Personally I believe those numbers to be much higher.

    And unless you have a shared sexuality with someone, that deep romantic sense of love cannot bloom. Which given your claim that bisexuals equally seek long term/lifetime termed relationships, so many bisexuals get outraged when lesbians refuse to date them, yet refuse to date each other. Sounds sexual only to me.

    dirt

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  46. Bisexuality may or may not be transitory. For sure, some people go through an identity-searching/questioning/experimenting or exploring phase, and for sure some peoples' sexuality/sexual orientation is more fluid than others. But I don't think you (general you) can make the statement that bisexuality is transitory - I'm sometimes confused when and left a little frustrated when monosexuals (straight people and gay people) act as if bisexuality is invalid and always transitory.

    Some schools of thought say everyone is bisexual (I don't think I agree with that), others (like yours, I suppose) seem to say that nobody is. The statistics are definitely interesting (on that note if you have any links or studies I would love to read them :D) and I don't deny that there is (or was) a "bisexual chic", "bisexual hype/explosion" where it was trendy. I think that the "bi-trenders" are part of a reason for the statistics. I think that another part of it is what I said before, the fact that many people go through a "identity-searching/questioning/experimenting or exploring phase". On the road from straight to gay bisexuality may be passed through; a confused teen may find themselves identifying with the label bisexual before they realize/work out what they are for certain; in people who later ID as straight, their 'exerpimenting' naturally involves exploring the same sex.

    However I don't think this means that every bisexual is just a person exploring or experimenting, or a confused person, or someone who is 'on the road from straight to gay'. Some people are just bisexual. I don't see why you must "share a sexuality" with someone for that deep sense of romantic love and attachment to bloom. Must you also share a favorite color or mode of travel in order for a relationship to work? Across the world many bisexuals are in happy, loving relationships with non-bisexual people. Sharing a sexuality is not what helps a connection such as the one we speak of to bloom; that kind of connection stems from enjoying each other's company, respect, mutual trust - and the other things which are pillars of a healthy stable relationship (these pillars are common sense).

    I don't think or claim that all bisexuals equally seek long term/lifetime relationships. I think how much a person seeks that depends on the person and factors like what they want in life and how much they value romantic love and partnership and whether they prefer sexual or romantic attachments. Not whether they're attracted to males, females, or both. Some straight and gay people don't seek longterm relationships. Some bisexual people don't. That depends on the individual and their wants/needs/desires, not on sexuality.

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  47. I have seen monosexual people refusing to date bisexual people. I've seen it not phase the bisexual in question and I've seen it "outrage" or upset them. While I think refusing to date bisexual people purely because they are bisexual is sort of a form of prejudice (it rings of biphobia), I think that a person has a right to decide who and what kind of person they want to be with. People can have preferences or parameters about who they want to hang out with, sleep with, date and/or spend the rest of their life with. That is nature.

    I have never personally seen bisexuals "refuse to date each other" but I've read about it. I have seen plenty of bisexuals dating each other and getting along just fine. However it sounds to you or whatever you may think, since you're not in the heads of the world's population of bisexuals you can't make an assumption that it's "sexual only" for bisexuals or the average bisexual. For some it is. For some it isn't. There are shades in between, radical notion! It's the same with monosexual people.

    I'm always left perplexed when I experience biphobia and bisexual erasure from the homosexual community. There are misconceptions floating around and sometimes (not often) I find gay people asserting that it doesn't exist and isn't a valid identity or orientation. I'm pretty sure I exist, you know?

    I am wary of the LGBT alphabet soup and the whole queer theory thing. I'm also wary of including the "T" in with "LGB". Even having lesbians and gay men and bisexuals grouped together I can see problems with (pros and cons of both, if you know what I mean? so my mind isn't made up on that one e.g. I think there is unity in diversity and there are some overlapping areas, however at the same time I believe each 'community' has some different specific needs).

    I don't think anyone should suffer for their difference - you are a lesbian, I am a bisexual. Your difference is just a different one to mine. :)

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  48. By "bisexuality may or may not be transitory", I mean it depends on the person.

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  49. Oh, have my comments been deleted?

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  50. "Sexual orientation implies which sex, male or female a person is romantically oriented towards, and you stated for you ( a bisexual) its more to do with sex (fucking), therefore your bisexuality isnt a sexual orientation.

    I'm speaking only of shared sexualities (gay/lesbian-hetro), relationships where both parties have the capacity to fall permanently in love.

    dirt"

    I will never get my head around lesbians and gays who are unaccepting of another's sexual orientation like this.

    Bisexuality is not "more to do with fucking", no more so than any other orientation. What inane notion makes you think that bisexual people are unable to form long term bonds?

    You who rails on against the "systemic mysogyny", while oppressing others in the name of pseudo-psychology. Your hypocrisy saddens me. Your butchering of biology and psychology to fit your close-minded world view angers me.

    Your baseless accusations, made from outside, are the same as every straight person who's ever said you, as a butch lesbian, really just want to be a man.

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  51. "Clearly people (mostly women) can stomach fucking both men and women, most will however later fall in love with/partner with the opposite sex.

    Is bisexuality a "valid identity"? For the time the person (woman) is engaging with sex with both men and women.

    That however doesnt make it a sexual orientation.

    dirt"

    A sexual orientation is what you are, not what you do. You can be bisexual and only sleep with one gender.

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  52. Unless my internet cocked up I think Dirt deleted a long and politely worded (albeit off-topic from the original subject of this blog post, apologies!) comment from a bisexual? Literal bisexual erasure right there, lol. :')

    Hope it was just my connection! In which case, a shame, I hadn't saved my comment anywhere. :(

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  53. weird, you're assuming they mean *like* as in romantically, where that is not necessarily the case, people could be meaning to find a way for Lesbians like yourself who have a irrational disliking towards the trans community to befriend a Transman. and why does it matter exactly? i know i will piss you off when i say that potentially we are all Bi, nothing physically stops any lesbian from being attracted to a man (trans or otherwise) just like nothing stops a straight woman from having feelings for a lesbian. I'm not saying any orientation is invalid, we identify as an orientation because that is what we are attracted to, doesnt mean there can't be acceptions to that rule. i dont want to get into much more, your transphobic posts are as stupid as homophobic or racist posts. there is really no point in any of this, no matter what you say the trans community doesn't hurt anyone, it's the people who have irrational complications with any other human that are the problem.
    (just a note sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes I'm dyslexic)
    xx

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  54. I agree with some of Dirt's points, I just wish it wasn't so seemingly-rooted in transphobia, misandry, hatred of gay men and apparently now biphobia as well?

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