Change Your World-NOT your Body

Sunday, March 13, 2011

Children and Transition-A Discussion

Should children be allowed to medically transition? Yes or no.

If yes, what should be the earliest age they be allowed to transition?

If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition?

If against medical transition period, just indicate that.

If you leave a comment, please tell us whether you are female, male, intersexed or some version of trans.

dirt

Edit to add from a comment by Canadian:

Further to this discussion:

Should parents be allowed to decide or have "medical professionals" determine that their child is "Trans" because the present behaviours that do not conform to norms. Once it is determined that a child is "trans" should that child be treated as a pre-op trans and have their puberty delayed? In such a scenario who truly decides?
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76 comments:

  1. female, partner of transguy

    Should children be allowed to medically transition? No. Too early.

    If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition?

    A therapy should be started at teenagehood (15-16 years) and a medical transition can start at age 23-25.

    ReplyDelete
  2. female
    Should children be allowed to transition? Absolutely not.

    I also think several years of therapy should take place, starting when puberty sets in, or earlier if needed.

    I only support medical transitions if the person in question is Intersexed.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Should children be allowed to medically transition? No - therapy only

    If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition? Depends on the case and how much therapy they've undergone... nothing before I'd say, 16, period. And even then, I think there needs to be a mandatory time period to undergo therapy with a licensed psychologist prior to medical intervention. At least one year, preferably two.

    I am a transsexual man, transitioned over 13 years ago, and glad I did.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Further to this discussion:

    Should parents be allowed to decide or have "medical professionals" determine that their child is "Trans" because the present behaviours that do not conform to norms. Once it is determined that a child is "trans" should that child be treated as a pre-op trans and have their puberty delayed? In such a scenario who truly decides?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Canadian - having never been trans, and having NO idea what trans feels like, you wouldn't know that at 4 years of age, no one had to TELL me anything. I was allowed to dress any way I wanted to, no one pressured me, I played with whatever I wanted to... I just always KNEW. I don't expect you to get it. You don't want to. But thankfully, it doesn't matter that you think it shouldn't be allowed - because you'll never succeed in stopping a trans person from accessing care.

    ReplyDelete
  6. And your insults and nasty jabs *may* hurt the feelings of the young people who may or may not be doing it for thr wrong reasons... but those of us who have lived it our entire lives have heard enough BS and been through enough to be 100% confident in who and what we are. So please, save your breath with the little jabs you are so fond of... they are lost on most of us.

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  7. @Anon March 13, 2011 11:56 AM
    and March 13, 2011 11:53 AM



    "Canadian - having never been trans, and having NO idea what trans feels like, you wouldn't know that at 4 years of age, no one had to TELL me anything. "Canadian - having never been trans, and having NO idea what trans feels like, you wouldn't know that at 4 years of age, no one had to TELL me anything."

    Thanks for not actually responding to my post and thus taking the opportunity to attack me.
    I have dealt with being a gender non conformist so I do have some idea. Yes, I felt very close to the way you did when I was 4 as well, so don't make assumptions about my experiences.

    "But thankfully, it doesn't matter that you think it shouldn't be allowed"

    You seem very concerned about what I think and the implications of what I am posting...saying it doesn't matter what I think over and over again does not negate that fact. Obviously I have hit a nerve with you.

    " I just always KNEW"
    How did you just know? The knowing had to be attached to some thoughts and feelings that you can articulate. You say I don't want to understand...so here is your opportunity to explain.

    "And your insults and nasty jabs *may* hurt the feelings of the young people who may or may not be doing it for thr wrong reasons... but those of us who have lived it our entire lives have heard enough BS and been through enough to be 100% confident in who and what we are. So please, save your breath with the little jabs you are so fond of... they are lost on most of us."

    Do you have any examples of "my nasty jabs"? If it is so "lost" on you why are you following me around this blog trying to counter everything I say?

    ReplyDelete
  8. I don't follow "YOU" around - don't flatter yourself... I have commented in several other posts you have so I've encountered you. And my second post - I apologize for not clarifying, was a more general "you", to all the transphobic posters, it wasn't directed at you personally. And by saying I should explain to you what you don't understand... well, I'm not taking that bait. This blog isn't really aimed at educating one another, and my trying to "explain" myself to you is merely one more opportunity for others to ridicule. If you were truly interested in learning more about what you don't understand, there are some excellent resources out there.

    ReplyDelete
  9. oh i see dirt is deleting comments again when they aren't full of things to ridicule....

    ReplyDelete
  10. The only upside to young people transitioning is that the earlier they are able to start HRT, the better the "results." If a transman starts HRT at 15, he will grow tall and muscular and look more like his male friends. I've seen some examples where, after therapy and parental consent, young FTMs (under age 18) who take HRT look exactly like "bioguys," and so are probably happier with their results than someone like me who didn't start until later in life.

    All that aside, I'm still not sure those under 18 should be allowed to transition, because who knows who they are at that age? You think you do, but you don't. Every 5 or so years I look back and think "who WAS that person?"

    I think it's a tricky one, personally.

    (Now Dirt will accuse me of supporting child abuse, just watch.)

    ReplyDelete
  11. I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but it does indirectly.

    Every photo of me as a little girl tells the story: if I was in a dress I was crying and miserable. If I was in my jeans or my football uniform or cowboys outfit or shorts and a t-shirt i was grinning ear to ear. My toys were Matchbox cars (dozens), Hotwheels (tracks running all over the house), GI Joe (I had every uniform they made after some years), lincoln logs, legos, toy guns of various types, and sporting equipment. As often as I could I wore my football uniform to school. My two favorite places to shop were the army-navy surplus store and the sporting goods store. My favorite places to play were the dirt cliffs and river near my house and when I wasn't there I was on a football field or basketball court or playing any of the dozens of sports I loved. I hated anything girly and feminine and raised a huge stink if someone tried to get me to go there. And all of that lasted throughout my childhood. I never even owned a toy or object that was meant for girls. If I were that little girl right now I would have been in therapy and possibly worse, on the road to surgery and drugging. Instead I got to simply be myself, joyful, adventurous, excited about life, well loved, and healthy. No one pathologized me.

    There's nothing new about this feeling, it's been around for as long as there have been girls. It's only now that it's getting pathologized that this trend is occurring. You're not special, all you twits who want to transition, you're cowards for not simply being who you are without all that medical intervention.

    And to answer Dirt's question directly, I'm female, proudly, openly female and I can be ANYTHING I want to be without Daddy Dr. and you crazy people telling me I have to have therapy and drugs and surgery. Children should be simply encouraged to be exactly who they are and not put the whole gender bullshit on them. There are girls who do all those things I did and it's perfectly healthy. Leave them the hell alone!!!!!

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  12. @Anon March 13, 2011 2:46 PM

    And the church says 'AMEN'

    ReplyDelete
  13. "and you crazy people telling me I have to have therapy and drugs and surgery."

    Yeah these people are sick because they are the ones who are stereotyping children.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I am trans and female (identified).

    "Should children be allowed to medically transition?"

    I don't think they should start hormones before their mid/late teens, and they should probably start with smaller doses.

    I think puberty blockers should be available as needed, but not just for trans people. One of my friends started menstruating by the time she was ten, perhaps because of all the hormones in the food.

    I think therapists need to rule out other reasons for sex and gender-related pain. I think there should be more emphasis on learning to cope with body issues, because so many trans people still face body issues and some non-trans people consider transition for their body issues.

    "Should parents be allowed to decide or have "medical professionals" determine that their child is "Trans" because the present behaviours that do not conform to norms. Once it is determined that a child is "trans" should that child be treated as a pre-op trans and have their puberty delayed? In such a scenario who truly decides?"

    The kid has to be the one to decide. Therapists should help children recognize that boys and girls can have any of the same interests - basically the opposite of what Zucker does. Therapists should help find role-models who do not conform to gender expectations.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "You're not special, all you twits who want to transition, you're cowards for not simply being who you are without all that medical intervention."

    No, I'm not special, or a coward. Masquerading as gays or lesbians, we might have found acceptance in those circles and suffered from continued unhappiness and self-denial, but as transsexuals we often have no acceptance from *any* circle. We are laughed at and mocked, seen as subhuman. You and I might have had similar childhoods but at some point I accepted the fact that transitioning was necessary for me. That was hard given the potential rejection I faced from friends, family and loved ones. I've got more strength in my little finger than you do, given that you *still* have to come here and name-call people you don't know, who's experience you don't have. If this is evidence of your blessed self-acceptance, I'll take my route.

    ReplyDelete
  16. FTM

    Should children be allowed to medically transition?
    No, but if a child feels they have GID they should be allowed to access therapy

    If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition?
    18 at the earliest. But I think at least a few years of therapy and living in the role of the desired sex should be required before physical transition.

    Not sure how I feel about hormone blockers before puberty.. I guess that would depend on how severe the case is. If a kid is doing something like hurting themselves because they hate their bodies so much, and therapy isn't helping, it might be something to consider.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Transguy. 37 Years old, 8 years transitioned.

    There were alot of things I did not know about life when I was 13 or 14, but my gender was not one of those things. I was not conflicted.

    I feel that there are alot of advantages to transitioning at a young age- especially if puberty blockers are available. The physical changes from puberty can be avoided, and changes from testosterone are maximized the closer you are to your real puberty age. Your body calls out more frequently for those hormones.


    Socially, if there had been any kind of support or visibility for ftm's at my age, I would have had a much different life. I don't necessarily regret my time in the lesbian community, but a particular kind of heartbreak could have been avoided. Because my desire for a male appearance was so strong and evident, I thought that everyone was like me. I assumed that the acceptance I had in the lesbian community was as a *human*, not contingent upon how I felt or decisions I made. Naive, for sure, and I do blame myself. You can't accept magnanimity from a marginalized group which is already denied basic acceptance.

    Had my parents been able to help me earlier, and they do wish they had, I'm not sure I would have had much contact with lesbians in my life. The only thing I am left with from that experience are a few very close friendships, and an acute awareness of the hatefulness and mistrust that can come from ignorance and marginalization.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Intersex

    Should children be allowed to medically transition?
    I think children should be allowed to express themselves however they want without anyone labelling that with gender role nonsense. If I was raising a child, and that child wanted to be a gun-slinging, t-rex riding, princess gown wearing, rough and tumble playing child, I would say, 'that's nice' regardless of sex. If the child tried to knife their own genitals, though, to therapy with them.

    But with children, I don't even think medical transition becomes particularly relevant until 16, and if it becomes relevant before, I guess I don't know enough about puberty blockers to really comment on the matter, but if they're safe then okay, in a child severely unhappy with their physical state, I don't see the harm. I'm not one to risk a child's life. At 16, if the child is not wrapped up issued stemming from social bullshit, and I know that they are completely unable to relate to their own body, their therapist agrees on that matter (and again not on social stuff, and after a fair amount of time), then hormone therapy could begin. I'd want to be very very very careful about that kind of thing, though. Also, the child should have a lot of education about the particular effects of any drug taken (since I think past 16, they are capable of some brainwork), and if anything is happening that they are uncomfortable with, stop the hormones immediately.

    I may have to come back and refine that answer at a later time after more thought on the matter.

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  19. @Anon March 13, 2011 3:34 PM


    "You and I might have had similar childhoods but at some point I accepted the fact that transitioning was necessary for me."

    Can you explain that a bit more? What thought process made you decide that and how did you come to the discovery that you were different?

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  20. "Can you explain that a bit more? What thought process made you decide that and how did you come to the discovery that you were different?"


    From the second I saw that physical transitioning was possible, I realized that it was what I had always wanted. The rest of the time "thinking about it" was wasted, as it had very little to do with me or my life. Being afraid of rejection from my community, my family, and being tagged with the name "transsexual". My internalized transphobia was complete, and was completely informed by the culture of hate and mistrust I was in. My desire never went away, but all the other reasons that kept me from transitioning fell away, as they were secondary.

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  21. @Anon March 13, 2011 4:25 PM

    Well thanks but you really did not answer my question so I will be more direct. How did you decide that you were in the wrong body.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anon 4:03, I agree with you. I think the big difference between folks like Anon 2:46 and FTMs like you and I is that they never felt that they should be boys, or that they were boys.

    I'm all for girls being encouraged to be whoever they are as kids, play with "boys" toys, never wear a dress a day in their lives, etc. etc., and growing up to be strong, tough, non-trans women. I don't think anyone like that should be encouraged to transition.

    But it's different when from a very early age, the girl feels and expresses that she is a boy and will grow up to be a man. That's one BIG difference between me and Anon 2:46. I "accepted" that I was a girl because I'm not stupid and I knew the difference between the physical bodies men and women come in (and the intersex folks), but I was never happy about it. My breasts always felt like disgusting tumors to me. And as soon as I became aware that physical transition was possible, the line was removed between the two physical bodies men and women come in and I knew I could be who I really felt like I was.

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  23. @Anon
    "an acute awareness of the hatefulness and mistrust that can come from ignorance and marginalization."

    So any arguement put forward by lesbians that you don't want to deal with is deemed invalid by virtue of their "marginalization"?

    One wonders how you feel/treat other "marginalized" groups

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  24. "Well thanks but you really did not answer my question so I will be more direct. How did you decide that you were in the wrong body."

    I feel I'm in the right body-my body. And that some changes were necessary and desired to match the physical image I had always thought I was projecting in the world, but was not, until now.

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  25. Anon@4:51,

    "Felt" being the operative word.

    And regarding hating your breast, you and most women on the planet. What you have to ask yourself is what informed THAT hate. If that isnt asked and answered and understood, having your breast hacked from your body isnt going to fix shit.

    dirt

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  26. @anon March 13, 2011 4:51 PM

    "But it's different when from a very early age, the girl feels and expresses that she is a boy and will grow up to be a man. That's one BIG difference between me and Anon 2:46. I "accepted" that I was a girl because I'm not stupid and I knew the difference between the physical bodies men and women come in (and the intersex folks), but I was never happy about it. My breasts always felt like disgusting tumors to me. And as soon as I became aware that physical transition was possible, the line was removed between the two physical bodies men and women come in and I knew I could be who I really felt like I was."

    This happened to me too...I knew I as different from other girls from a very young age. I also had an aversion to my breasts as well.
    But, I was also very aware of the messages I was receiving from outside sources. When your say you had an aversion to your breasts did you stop and think why that was?

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  27. @ Canadian

    I'm not the poster you were asking this question of, but I think every person's answer is a little different.

    For me, I wanted to be a boy and grow up to be a man, but knew that wasn't possible (until I learned about FTMs later in life). But I ALWAYS wanted a beard. I used to use soap and the back side of my mom's shaving razors and pretend to shave my face. In college when I used to clip my own hair short with an electric hair clipper, I would take the little hairs that were left and put them on my face like a beard and wish so desperately that it was real. I've always wanted a male body - not sexually, but as in I wanted to inhabit that body. Big thick hairy forearms, scruffy face and hair - I longed for those things.

    Now, I can't explain why, any more that I can explain why I like the colors orange and blue together. But these are the feelings that I had that make me so happy that I decided to transition, at the age of 35.

    Does that help at all?

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  28. "One wonders how you feel/treat other "marginalized" groups"

    Well, I don't feel pity for them- I think that's insulting. But I do tend to distrust excessive judgment coming from certain groups as a function of what they have been denied. There can be a lack of personal responsibility that comes into play, which is shitty for everyone.

    In my experience, it's a luxury afforded to privileged people to feel magnanimity and to extend the benefit of the doubt to people we do not understand.

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  29. a smart kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-CSYjkL1Mo

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  30. Should children be allowed to medically transition?
    No, that's never okay.

    If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition?
    18 at the youngest.

    And I think when parents say that there child are transsexual in really young ages(5-13) it's just sick.

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  31. "why I like the colors orange and blue together."

    I learned in color theory that this particular combination of colors is documented to be pleasing to the human eye. Imagine an orange sunset and just above it a blue night sky. Pleasant! Don't worry, you are not alone! ;)

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  32. http://www.youtube.com/user/TransChildren

    a youtube channel for transchildren

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  33. I don't think children should be allowed to transition. As for adults, I have yet to see any proof that's it's necessary either. I recognize that people can make different choices in life. There's a guy who calls himself Lizardman who has undergone body modifications to look like a green lizard including a forked tongue, and I suppose that as an adult, he is entitled to do so.

    The "transition" trend concerns me because it is so widespread now. I feel it will be a huge mistake for a large number of young women. I think it also goes against the basic premise of feminism of people being able to live their lives without having to adhere to sex role stereotypes. I feel it also promotes the valuing of maleness over femaleness.

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  34. "There's a guy who calls himself Lizardman who has undergone body modifications to look like a green lizard including a forked tongue, and I suppose that as an adult, he is entitled to do so."

    Right, and my father claims that people will marry their pets if we let gays marry...
    He may be right, but I'm not too worried about that.

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  35. @Dirt

    Do you think it is ok for a women in her mid to late 30s or 40s to have her "healthy" brests removed?
    IF:
    - she has no need for them eg children
    - she finds they are annoying
    - has no significant attachment to them
    - is NOT encouraged by society to have them removed


    What are your thoughts here dirt?
    Id like to see an answer, but i accept you may delete this

    ReplyDelete
  36. People shouldn't even be considered adults until age 25. So not before then should they be medically transitioning. If they want to do so socially by changing name and how they dress, fine, but no drugs or surgeries.

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  37. The is no reason to have any healthy body part removed.

    dirt

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  38. Should children be allowed to medically transition? Yes or no.
    "No for complete transition. Yes for hormone blockers for MTF. That is because you can always go off the hormone blockers, change your mind, and Testosterone has permanent affects on your body that you cannot change."

    If no, what do you feel should be the age of transition?
    "Complete transition I think should become an option at the legal adult age of the country."


    Should parents be allowed to decide or have "medical professionals" determine that their child is "Trans" because the present behaviours that do not conform to norms. Once it is determined that a child is "trans" should that child be treated as a pre-op trans and have their puberty delayed? In such a scenario who truly decides?
    "I think labelling has dangerous outcomes for everyone that is potentially labbelled. Including people with disabilities and mental illneses. I think counselling and support should be available for children that are having troubles coping with how they feel. Regardless of labels."

    I am a female to male transexual. I waited 10 years before taking steps to physically transition. Everyone is different though.

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  39. @Anon March 13, 2011 5:03 PM

    "In my experience, it's a luxury afforded to privileged people to feel magnanimity and to extend the benefit of the doubt to people we do not understand."

    Nice fig leaf to cover, mitigate and justify your prejudices...

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  40. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  41. butch woman- 37

    it's funny to me how some of these trans people keep saying how the differences between people like me and people like them were how they wanted to be boys growing up, etc.
    I read your descriptions and can honestly say to you that i felt that exact same way growing up.

    i wanted to be a boy- i thought i was a boy that would some how miraculously grow up to be a man. i remember distinctly laying in bed holding my chest praying that my breasts would not grow. (luckily they never much did.)

    i distinctly remember my very early first attempts at masterbation, where i humped at pillows imaging my penis going into a woman.

    i remember all of this. i toyed with the idea of transitioning several times throughout my life. but in retrospect, those thoughts really only were at their worst when i was deeply into a mindset of hating my body.

    i am 37 now. i think back to myself at 13, 16, at 21, at 28- at all those different ages i was very different- but the constant that was there was that i hated my body. never felt ok in it.

    now- after years of therapy, after finding my soul mate, i have finally come to terms with my body. sure i still dislike my ass and hips, but i do exercises to help with that.

    just because i currently label myself as butch lesbian, if you take away that label, am i really so different than you? i don't see that i am. i have just come to terms with being a woman and accepting my natural body as a adult. and i have come to terms with the fact that i am not societies ideal version of female. and thats ok. it takes much strength to stay woman, stay masculine in this society that wants me to be male with my masculinity.

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  42. I agree with above poster at 12:34.

    The only way we as a group are going to make this a better world for all non-conforming women, is if we refuse to transition, and force society to accept all women as they are. expressing who they are as women.

    I too, read many of these comments, and think to myself, that sounds just like my experience. The only differences being that I choose not to transition.

    I don't think I've ever met a single woman who is completely and totally ok with her body 100% of the time. This is how this world raises us.

    I do believe that there are rare cases of extreame transsexuals. but I believe it's as rare as intersexed people. Which is pretty rare, unlike the comments I see on here of people claiming intersex.

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  43. FTM here
    should children be able to transition? No
    Age of transition? legal adult age.
    should parents be aloud to decide if a child is trans?
    no one can decide weather somone is trans accept for that individual with the acception of medical expert advice.
    once the individual has been through therapy and is seen to be capable to make their own life discissions AND is of legal adult age then it is their right to make their own discission.

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  44. @1:38

    "but I believe it's as rare as intersexed people. Which is pretty rare, unlike the comments I see on here of people claiming intersex."

    It's rare. Feel free to disbelieve me, there's not much to be done about it, and I guess it doesn't really change the actual content of anything I say. Though I'd suggest not to equate rarity to non-existence, since that kind of erases some people's realities.

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  45. I'm a trans guy but no I don't think children should be allowed to transition. I think it's fine to get the diagnosis at an early age and then have the parents do research as well as the child on transition. Then at 18 if that child wants to transition, providing that he or she has done research and thinks it is right for them, then they can transition.

    I mean if my 14 year old step-son told me and his mom that he feels like he is a girl, we would get him into therapy and then go from there.

    I did my own research for 17 years before I decided that doing HRT was the right thing for me. I lived full-time as a man since Sept.30, 2007 and didn't go on T until July of 2008. It was just the right decision for me.

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  46. Nat-

    1 in 2000 is pretty darn rare. I'm not denying your existance. I would of called you by name if I was refering to you. Look anywhere now on youtube, on tumblr, etc. Many, many young people seem all to confused as to what intersexed actually is, yet they claim it.

    So by these numbers if by chance there are over 2000 commentors on this blog, the one intersexed person would be you.

    I assume that you are not any of the other anon intersexed people that comment on here, since you also sign your name on your comments.

    do the math....

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  47. "Nice fig leaf to cover, mitigate and justify your prejudices..."

    NOW what are you talking about Canadian? It was YOUR prejudices I was talking about! Can you not follow a thread?

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  48. Opps....it was July 2009 that I went on T not 2008. It was a typo!

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  49. 3:00pm
    im not one of the intersexed but saying "So by these numbers if by chance there are over 2000 commenter’s on this blog, the one intersexed person would be you."
    isnt necessarily true. if this blog was about bunnies, then maybe, but this blog is about gender identity, so of course it is going to attract gender minorities.
    its like saying 1 out of 10 men are gay so only 1 out of 10 men on gay chat rooms are gay.

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  50. "just because i currently label myself as butch lesbian, if you take away that label, am i really so different than you? i don't see that i am. i have just come to terms with being a woman and accepting my natural body as a adult. and i have come to terms with the fact that i am not societies ideal version of female. and thats ok. it takes much strength to stay woman, stay masculine in this society that wants me to be male with my masculinity."

    I don't think that we are that different. I think if you ever did actually consider transitioning, you would immediately see that it takes strength to do that too. Knowing that there are so many people out there hating, mistrusting and judging you without even knowing you. Knowing that there are so many people out there who will assert the superiority of their experience over yours without having walked a mile in your shoes. I could easily tell you that it takes, in fact, a stronger person to transition given society's opinion of us, but I would never say that because I think the strong thing to do is what's right for you. Period.

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  51. to anon at 3:00

    isnt necessarily true. if this blog was about bunnies, then maybe, but this blog is about gender identity, so of course it is going to attract gender minorities.
    its like saying 1 out of 10 men are gay so only 1 out of 10 men on gay chat rooms are gay.

    agreed- however, do you really believe that there are over 2000 commentors on this blog? come on now!

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  52. my experience growing up was similar to 12:24
    but i never labeled my feelings as 'male'-style,
    it was not until i was in my 20's (i'm 39 now, boyish goldstar lesbo, still occasionally mistaken for a 'twink' by men (yuck)) that i was informed of my non-conforming gender by the younger 'queers' when i was running with the 'riot grrrls'

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  53. there dosnt have to be 2000, once again, this blog attracts gender minorities, this blog may attract intersex people wishing to take on a male transition, it is going to attract intersex people. your statistics are usless here.

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  54. @Anon March 14, 2011 3:06 PM

    After labeling all lesbians as being myopic due to oppression you talk about my prejudices???

    You really don't see how bad you look right now do you?

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  55. @3:00 anon

    According to almighty wikipedia (okay I know that this is kind of a bogus source to be using), the prominence of transmen is between 20,000 and 100,000 in the US, so by the weird calculations, there should only be one transman per 20,000 commenters. There clearly is more than that. (Even if we say they are ten times more prominent than almighty wikipedia says, one in two thousand commenters here still seems a bit low.)

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  56. @3:00 anon

    According to almighty wikipedia (okay I know that this is kind of a bogus source to be using), the prominence of transmen is between 20,000 and 100,000 in the US, so by the weird calculations, there should only be one transman per 20,000 commenters. There clearly is more than that. (Even if we say they are ten times more prominent than almighty wikipedia says, one in two thousand commenters here still seems a bit low.)

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  57. 4:01
    And im from the uk.
    your not even taking in to account that were not all from the US.
    once again.
    Usless

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  58. @4:01
    sorry i got mixed up.
    but yeah, there are people outside of the US on here to, which arnt even being taken in to account so 3:00 statistics are even more warped by that.

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  59. @4:05

    I was just explaining the error in how you (or the other anon, I can't keep track of them all) calculated there should be 1 intersex commenter for 2000 commenters. If we discount all of the non-US commenters, ftms commenting on this blog would still be statistically disproportionate among the US commenters. I'm not from the US either. I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point.

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  60. @4:05

    I'm not from the US either. I was just giving an estimate on the statistic, since unfortunately wikipedia denies me any more global information.

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  61. There are some people who comment on here who have hard core delusions brought about by years of hating themselves, their bodies, and women in general. That's just life in the patriarchy, it's nothing unique or special.

    But they think it's special and different and unusual and get off on that (because we ALL want to be special and unique) and it's so clear that nothing will ever get through to them here, they come here just to argue. They believe they've found the holy grail that will make them whole and happy.

    And there are a whole bunch of lurkers who are just not so sure.

    Many of us felt like boys when we were kids. We wanted their clothes, their bodies, their toys, their relationships with their fathers, the things they could do, their fascinating dicks that could pee standing up, the things they could look forward to. We also wanted to be men -- what we thought men were when we were kids, that is. It's just what kids do. I wanted a beard and mustache. I dressed up every Halloween in a male costume, often with a mustache and sideburns. That continued into adulthood.

    The point we're making is that all of those feelings do not MAKE you a boy or man and you don't have to chop off parts of your body and poison yourself with T. The only reason that seems like a logical option is because a handful of very vocal and very mentally ill people are talking louder than anyone else.

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  62. amen to anon at 12:40!

    funny thing is- if you tried to tell me all that when i was 13-25, i would of ignored it all claiming i too was so unique. that no one understood MY feelings.

    people- we are not so different. the older you get the more you realize this. you can't make young people understand this simple idea. they will just have to get older and wiser and see for themselves.

    it's similar to say Portia, Ellen's wife. She just recently at 38 has come to terms with her body dysphoria.

    all these youngin's' think they know it all.

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  63. "all these youngin's' think they know it all."

    That's not a phenomenon limited to transpeople.

    What I see here is a lot of older women trying to tell young ftm's what they should feel, how they should get older and wiser, how they should come to accept their bodies. You are not necessarily *wiser*-you have just gone on a different path. Since you don't have the experience of transitioning physically, your knowledge is simply not worth much.

    It comes across as a bit resentful. Are you pissed that they get to feel and be and do what they are doing?

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  64. "You really don't see how bad you look right now do you?"

    No, I guess I really don't. Should I care how I look to you, since you have already decided that there's no validity to my life as I live it. Fuck that.

    I had alot of time in the lesbian community. That's a valid experience that I can talk about. I do think the view from there can be myopic and I do see attraction being based on false notions of what a person has to offer because of their chromosomes. It seems...untenable. Women are not safe, kind, gentle, wise, nurturing, or smart because they are women. I've seen just as many violent, competitive and aggressive women. Same goes for men. There is no single attribute that holds true across either gender. Except chromosomes and genitals. That seems like not such a great set of criteria to base a relationship on. So yeah, I do see gay culture as being myopic when it comes to gender. I don't get it.

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  65. that to me is the most annoying thing about the pro-trans argument, when people claim to be beyond gender altogether whilst really building a life so focused on it, a sort of caricature version

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  66. "when people claim to be beyond gender altogether whilst really building a life so focused on it, a sort of caricature version"

    That's kind of the problem here: you are the one focused on gender, because you are processing through this new information. *I'm* focused on getting people to question their immediate distrust and hatred of trans-people. At least *question* it, people, because as feminists you should immediately question your prejudices that are shared by society at large. In my *life* I'm actually not focused on my gender anymore-that was the whole fucking point. I'm focused on being a good student, on building my career, on being a good, supportive, communicative partner, friend, and son. I transitioned because none of these things were going to be possible for *me* until I dealt with my true feelings.

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  67. Actually, i *do* have all day...

    "when people claim to be beyond gender altogether whilst really building a life so focused on it, a sort of caricature version"

    That's kind of the problem here: you are the one focused on gender, because you are processing through this new information. *I'm* focused on getting people to question their immediate distrust and hatred of trans-people. At least *question* it, people, because as feminists you should immediately question your prejudices that are shared by society at large. In my *life* I'm actually not focused on my gender anymore-that was the whole fucking point. I'm focused on being a good student, on building my career, on being a good, supportive, communicative partner, friend, and son. I transitioned because none of these things were going to be possible for *me* until I dealt with my true feelings.

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  68. @Anon March 16, 2011 2:57 PM


    "You really don't see how bad you look right now do you?"

    "No, I guess I really don't. Should I care how I look to you, since you have already decided that there's no validity to my life as I live it. Fuck that."

    Sigh, because I don't validate one aspect of your life does not mean I invalidate your whole life since you have already gone to great lengths to establish you have an identity beyond your trans self. Of course I have questioned this as you seem to equate my questioning of your trans identity with invalidating your entire life. You obviously do care what I think and your intense response indicates as much.

    "I had alot of time in the lesbian community. That's a valid experience that I can talk about. I do think the view from there can be myopic and I do see attraction being based on false notions of what a person has to offer because of their chromosomes. It seems...untenable. Women are not safe, kind, gentle, wise, nurturing, or smart because they are women. I've seen just as many violent, competitive and aggressive women. Same goes for men. There is no single attribute that holds true across either gender. Except chromosomes and genitals. That seems like not such a great set of criteria to base a relationship on. So yeah, I do see gay culture as being myopic when it comes to gender. I don't get it."

    Ahhh...there it is. A wholesale attack on homosexuality itself.
    I am not really sure you get the idea that because someone is soley(or for the most part) attracted to one gender they base that attraction on some idealized version of that gender. Attraction is not based on such rational precepts or stereotypes. Lesbians are well aware that women are not perfect, but because they form the closets emotioanl and most intimate relationships with other women they will continue to persue such relationships. I have a question for you. Do you feel that hetrosexual are myopic as well or does the fact that homosexuals are attracted to the same sex make them myopic?

    My response was inspired by the fact that you painted all marginalized groups as "judgemental" because of their "oppresion" and thus justified your dismissal of a least some of their views.

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  69. "Sigh, because I don't validate one aspect of your life does not mean I invalidate your whole life since you have already gone to great lengths to establish you have an identity beyond your trans self."

    Yes, of course my identity does not consist solely of my transness, but I am aware that I represent something reprehensible to you, or at the very least, questionable. This cuts deeply, because I don't see my transness as being questionable. There is something about the body as a person's earthly domain that seems beyond the reach of the politics of the day. Maybe that's just a privileged perspective. For example, though I believe there is such a thing as fat-phobia, I would not consider it within my jurisdiction to question an obese friend's decision to diet. Though I know that perhaps homosexuality was not biology's intended use for our reproductive systems, it's out of my domain to suggest that to my homosexual friends. Not only that, but it's CRAZY! Though I know that statistically there must be ftm's out there who transition for the wrong reasons, I feel compelled to keep stating that not all of us did. That many of us were exposed to quite a bit of feminism and embraced it, and might not be the
    co-opted, fucked-up victimized individuals that you think we are.

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  70. "Do you feel that hetrosexual are myopic as well or does the fact that homosexuals are attracted to the same sex make them myopic?"

    Yeah, I guess I do feel that heterosexuals are myopic, but with the powerful backing of hetero-normativity. Which makes it beyond myopic. I hate to use the dreaded word queer here, but I have to say that queer people seem to have the greatest variance in gender-presentation, choices of partner, and perspective.

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  71. ha!
    everyone's myopic but the glorious Queer

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  72. anon @ 2:57

    "Women are not safe, kind, gentle, wise, nurturing, or smart because they are women. I've seen just as many violent, competitive and aggressive women. Same goes for men."

    um, what planet are you living on? cause on this one men are the ones who are violent, men are the ones in supreame control, men are the ones raping, men are the ones gay bashing, men are the ones killing women, men are the ones doing genocide. your really off target with that comment

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  73. anon @ 9:24
    " In my *life* I'm actually not focused on my gender anymore-that was the whole fucking point. I'm focused on being a good student, on building my career, on being a good, supportive, communicative partner, friend, and son. I transitioned because none of these things were going to be possible for *me* until I dealt with my true feelings."

    ---- or you just grew up a lil. :O

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  74. "um, what planet are you living on? cause on this one men are the ones who are violent, men are the ones in supreame control, men are the ones raping, men are the ones gay bashing, men are the ones killing women, men are the ones doing genocide. your really off target with that comment"

    What planet are you living on? If you see things in this black and white manner, then I think you must be a)20 or b) recently exposed to your first Sociology class. Wake up. Women abuse other women verbally, emotionally, and physically. Women also abuse and molest men and boys. Women are not "safe" or gentle, and I think consigning these false earth-mama characteristics to them really allows for their devaluing.

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  75. anon @ 2:33

    do we really need to get stats for you to show you that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes commited in this world are done by men?! come on now!
    yes, of course there have been some cases of women doing these things you mention. but they are quite rare. especially when you compare to the numbers that men commit those same crimes.

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  76. Men murder on average 8 times for every murder perpetrated by a woman. The homicide rate "gender gap" hasn't closed over the years. In fact it has increased, and this despite a decline in number of homicides. In 1976 the ratio of male murderers to female was 5 to 1. By 1999 it was 9 to1 and at its peak, in 1995, it reached a surprisingly high 11 to 1 ratio.


    With more than 2.1 million violent offenses committed annually by women, one must not confuse a lower rate of violent activity with no violent criminal activity. However, women do commit violent acts at a substantially lower rate than their male counterparts, once for every 7.15 times that a man commits a violent act.



    Read more: Violent Crime - Gender Differences In Violent Crime Offenders - Women, Male, Female, Homicide, Victims, and Murder http://social.jrank.org/pages/1253/Violent-Crime-Gender-Differences-in-Violent-Crime-Offenders.html#ixzz1Gt08ACWM

    Read more: Violent Crime - Gender Differences In Violent Crime Offenders - Women, Male, Female, Homicide, Victims, and Murder http://social.jrank.org/pages/1253/Violent-Crime-Gender-Differences-in-Violent-Crime-Offenders.html#ixzz1Gszg9Jjl

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