Change Your World-NOT your Body

Friday, February 18, 2011

Stealth-From Transman to Man

Each of us has our very own personal pasts, memories we think back on when we're alone, memories that make us laugh aloud, memories that bring tears to our eyes, memories that comfort us when nothing or no one else can. One of the best things about memories are sharing them with friends, both old and new. With past friends we reminisce, with new friends we share ourselves through sharing our memories, with each childhood story or silly teen story our new friends getting to know the REAL us. What happens to a mind when whole portions of its past have to be constantly edited or totally erased?

The editing and or near total erasure from ones past, which is ones REAL true self is what happens when female transitioners go stealth. Stealth in this case meaning passing as male to every new person met and maintaining the lie that they not only are male but have always been. What are the psychological ramifications of editing or deleting ones past on a regular/daily basis?? Are there consequences? Can a mind on constant edge of being "found out", a mind living a constant lie be a healthy mind???

dirt
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117 comments:

  1. Any lesbian who has ever had to be in the closet has experienced just a tiny example of this and it is tough. Having to constantly lie and try to remember to use male pronouns for our gfs and not to be able to include coworkers in our lives. This is an interesting topic and I have watched many ftm videos about how after transition, they in fact do feel like a fake and a lie. Its a full time job for them to fool Joe public but even harder to fool themselves on a daily basis especially every day when they wake up to find that they still have a vagina. What a mind fuck for them.

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  2. I'm FTM, and I'm pretty out about it. I don't make a point of coming out to random grocery store clerks or whatever but all my friends and family know, and I've told them it's no secret.

    I could never walk away from my past. And I don't know a single transperson who has done that. My FTM friends with female partners feel, as part of the queer community, that their partners should also be free not to live in fear of accidentally outing their partners.

    Are there really that many FTMs who live in TOTAL stealth? I don't know any...

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  3. I agree with G. I don't know of any FTM's that live in TOTAL stealth. I wouldn't want to. I have no desire to. I also don't just tell everyone I meet that I am trans.

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  4. If everyone is so open about being trans, why is getting the gender marker changed so important?

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  5. Because it is part of the transition.

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  6. @db,

    Every time they wipe their pussy when they pee it is a reminder of their true natures, that cant be healthy while trying to live a lie to yourself and those around you.

    dirt

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  7. @Cilla,

    Because it is part of the big lie.

    dirt

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  8. For anyone interested there are tons of youtubes from trans(men) speaking on the difficulty of living a lie (stealth). Just search trans(men) or ftm along with stealth. Very sad stuff.

    dirt

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  9. It's not a "big lie," Dirt. It's just impossible to be truly stealth without packing up and randomly moving somewhere where nobody has ever met you and cutting off contact with everyone you know. It's a rare person that wants to/could pull that off.

    Just because people in my life know I'm trans doesn't mean they don't treat me like a man. I can be a man without being stealth.

    By the way, I don't have to "wipe my pussy" when I pee standing up.

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  10. This is a good video on the subject:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3E6yq7K7Yo

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  11. @G. A surgically modified pussy is still a pussy, stop kidding yourself. And your friends are humoring you, they KNOW you are a WOMAN You can't possibly KNOW what it feels like to be treated like a man because you are not one and will never be one. Also, I have watched many ftms put up vids that they are going stealth and then delete their channels. And did you ever think that maybe you dont know any because they are....STEALTH.

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  12. G,

    Because you put a piece of plastic up to your pussy to pee, doesnt negate the fact that you and biological female have a pussy. Stop hating your self already.

    dirt

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  13. Anon 12:04, and "G", so what you're saying is to fully transition, and be at peace with yourselves, you need to cover up the fact that at birth you were female? Wouldn't having your records sealed accomplish the same? "G", you got yourself rerouted? Huh, I can pee standing as well. I do it when I use public facilities and I manage not to get it on the seat. I'm not rerouted though.

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  14. Nah, I didn't get "rerouted." Can't afford it. And Dirt, I don't hate myself. I feel pretty dang good, in fact.

    I have changed my paperwork and genetic marker because people in stores were starting too look at me really funny when I tried to use my old credit card/ID. That, and my old name was REALLY female. And for international travel in these times, you think a dude with a beard is going to get on an airplane with an "F" on his passport?

    Really I wish there were no gender markers on any documents, because what is the point of that, really? Aside from medical care, I suppose.

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  15. It's funny how in Europe many men sit to pee and they don't feel less "manly." Also, lots of European men shave most of their body hair off.
    No FtM will ever be a man (I refuse to use the stupid prefix of "cis" or "bio".) Either you were born a man or not.

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  16. If you were happy G, you would be here telling us how happy you are. Happy people dont take needless drugs or pay to have their bodies mutilated.

    dirt

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  17. So "G" can't afford her surgery but is worried about international travel? I wondering what the point of hormones, chopping off your breasts, packing plastic and growing a beard is if everyone knows you are a girl trying to pretend to be a "man". I mean really...what's the point?

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  18. I'm here telling you how happy I am to contradict all the negative messages you spew about FTMs. It's really discouraging, not to mention disgusting, some of the things you have to say about us.

    I don't think top surgery is mutilation, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As for "needless drugs"... there's a debate over whether just about every drug is needless. Hell, some people don't even believe in AIDS.

    @ Anon 2:57:

    It's called the Canada-US border, and I live right close to it and have family in both countries. I want to be able to get to my family if one of them gets sick or needs help.

    My friends, family, and the rest of the world doesn't treat me like a "pretend" anything. You feel free, though. I don't even know you.

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  19. As far as happiness goes, I'd have to say that the ftm's who post here seem alot more comfortable and relaxed about the whole thing than you lot. Don't you get that we already *know* some people won't accept us as men if they know our past or what's in our pants? That shit has been processed already. Regardless of what a bunch of fucked-up individuals online call us,we do have the experience of going through a hormone-induced male puberty and living in the world being treated as male. I personally don't think "men" or "women" have any exclusive right to a set of standard hormone levels, genitals, secondary-sex characteristics, or any other coded bullshit. How come so many women pass as men? There's too much variation out there. If you wanna call us women because you have some great meaning attached to that, go right ahead. It won't change a thing about my life. You are the ones suffering.

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  20. And by the way, you pretend to ask an earnest question about our lives, and then you comment about things like us "wiping our pussies". You don't actually want to learn anything, challenge yourself, or have a real discussion. All you want to do is assert that we women and be bitter and hateful. You are so weak, you make me sick. At least be willing to hear people.

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  21. Anon, right on. I mean, "wiping our pussies"? Even supposing we do that, how does that make us "living a lie"? It sounds so dramatic. YOU'RE LIVING A LIE, YOU PUSSY-WIPERS!

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  22. Females wipe theirs/our pussys when we pee, there isnt anything dramatic about it G, its simply part of being female.

    dirt

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  23. FtM's not only have to wipe their pussies, they also have to wash their "STP" device.

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  24. Dont get me started on the insanity of using STPs or the unsanitariness of using them. It illustrates the simplicity of how they view males and females. As in males stand to pee and females sit to pee, so they think if they stand to pee that makes them male. WRONG. It makes them a female who is standing to pee.

    dirt

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  25. You know, we got it Dirt: you're a bitch. There's no need to keep hammering it in.

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  26. "I personally don't think "men" or "women" have any exclusive right to a set of standard hormone levels, genitals, secondary-sex characteristics, or any other coded bullshit."

    There it is. The actual agenda of this "movement". It is not about the "male" and "female" brain or being trapped in the wrong body.
    Ever notice how the term gender fluidity never get uttered on this blog, and the telling comments about having to "lie" about GID to get surgery say even more. There is more choice involved then alot of people are willing to admit.

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  27. Anon @ 3:13pm

    "If you wanna call us women because you have some great meaning attached to that, go right ahead."

    What is the great meaning that you attach to calling yourself a man?

    This is a perfect example of what I see as the root cause of FTM thinking/disorder. Men and women in the biological sense are extremely 'meaningful' and completely different. For example, when the archeologists dig the remains of these FTM's up in the future, they will say, 'These are the bones of a woman.' No matter what you do to your flesh or how you poison your insides in an attempt ..... in attempt to do what exactly? I really don't understand it, I admit. Why is it you can't be who you want to be in the body you were blessed with?

    Everything else besides biology is either socialised, constructed or fabricated; gendered behaviours, desires, interests, wants, needs, thoughts, intentions, acts etc etc .... I do not understand then how FTM's who believe they were born in the wrong body would go so far as to actually achieve this, without actually recognising that what they have is disordered thinking? It is just logic. Why not get help for that? Why become what FTM's call a man? When a 'man' in the FTM sense is illusory, he doesn't exist. The only true and real definition of a man lies in the biology, as it does with a woman. And an FTM can never be a true man, as they were born women. So what sort of men are they ..... my answer is the 'constructed' man, the 'fabricated' man, the 'illusory' man. In no way does an FTM exist as a biological man. So what an FTM is, is a woman, draping herself with the curtains of what she sees is a 'man' without any real concrete experience of actually being a man, which is a biological man. This is disordered thinking and the best way to help this is to gain help and start to feel comfortable as a biological woman who is quite free and able to drape herself in the curtains she sees as 'male', for it is not male but merely a construct ...... in reality, FTM'd are the ones who have the power to change and alter the gender constructs society offers. But it won't be done by conforming to these constructs and becoming 'men' like FTM's assert, but by remaining women and being as 'contructedly male' as you wish.

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  28. Anon @ 3:13pm cont'd ...

    FTM's would do better and achieve more towards helping to catalyse social evolution and progress by remaining women and challenging the gender norms. The time and effort they put into their narcissistic youtube videos I suggest, could be better spent in other artistic endeavours such as art, music, literature whereby they should sing, write and scream to the world the way in which the oppression of gender norms should be dismantled. Thank god Youtube was not around when Virginia Woolf was 15!

    This is why, Dirt has this blog I believe. Because FTM's are undoing years or progress made by women and feminists as an FTM essentially concededs to these gender norms rather than challenge it. They are proving feminism to be a failure and they are doing so based on an illusion. They will NOT be biological males, Never, ever, ever .... and this matters because it is the only REAL definition of a male.
    Women supporting each other, loving themselves, loving each other is a very powerful force. It is the reason we are no longer the legal property of our husbands or fathers. The reason we can work, vote, have choices ....... the FTM epidemic puts all the work and progress that women can achieve further at risk because mysogny, the hatred of one's own female self is at the heart of it.

    When an FTM calls this a hate blog, she is wrong. Dirt and the others who comment and agree with her, including myself actually care about women, every woman, women as a group, women as a force for change, and this includes FTM's who are women, biological women, the only real definition of women. Where is the hate in logic I ask?
    To believe one to be the opposite sex to what they were born, is disordered thinking, this blog attempts to highlight that fact and I hope it implores some young women struggling with similar disordered thinking to seek help for that, rather than poison and cut their bodies. That is love, that is care. We are losing too many beautiful, powerful women who could be true engines for change to this terrible FTM epidemic!

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  29. Dirt,
    if YOU were truly happy you wouldn't be sitting here bashing innocent kids (yes, kids, you have bashed, bullied and harrassed children as young as 13 years old).

    It must suck to be so miserable.

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  30. anon @ 3:13

    Amen! I hope I never, ever end up and angry and depressed as these people are. It just makes me sad.

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  31. Oooooo, I think we hit a nerve. Dirt just can't STAND it that men can pee standing up!!

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  32. I use an STP because most toilets I encounter out in public are very disgusting and I would never touch them with my skin. I've hovered above them before but the STP makes it so much easier. Transmen are not the only ones that use them.

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  33. Anon @ 7:14

    "you can't lose what you never had"

    ... see, I don't understand this at all. What do you mean? These girls are women. It is not 'biological determinism' .... It is truth, it is fact, it is real and it cannot be denied. Not even with pseudo studies on 'brain sex', which are more likely than not to be authored by transitioners themselves in a vain attempt to alter what is factual indisputable.

    As for intersex people, that is their 'biological determinism' as you call it. Their biology is that of both sexes, and just as you or I, they are free (at a certain age, depending on parental limitations) to cloak themselves in the constructed gender they so wish, maybe take a little bit of both and help to highlight the deficiencies in gender binaries.

    FTM's do nothing but re-inforce binaries, stereotypes whatever, call it what you will.

    To assert that women are wishing to become illusory men, younger and younger and therefore do not experience womanhood is also something I do not understand? What is your rational for this? These girls were born women, they have experienced womanhood from birth. That is a fact. The idea that they are willing to mutilate and poison themselves at such young age, only serves to highlight their immaturity, lack of foresight, of decent role models in their lives, lack of respect for the female struggle and their part in it, lack of education and lack of logical thinking. It further highlights your naivety too, to use them to give credence to the concept of 'tansitioning' as anything more than a fabricated illusion founded in a disordered thinking mind, which would be better helped through therapy and working on one's perceived deficiencies through personal achievement.

    We ARE indeed losing strong and powerful women to this irrational concept of 'transitioning' and as such, if you love and care about women and our place in the world, you too will belive it is something worth fighting for.

    I thank and commend dirt, bluetraveler and all the other commentors on this blog for getting 'loud' about it.

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  34. Anon @ 3:17pm

    ..." You don't actually want to learn anything, challenge yourself, or have a real discussion. All you want to do is assert that we women"


    You are a woman. You will always be a woman. That is your biology. To think otherwise is to have a disorderd mind ..... how does one learn anything from a mind with disordered thinking?

    When Dirt or anyone asserts this fact on this blog you think it is hate. A rational mind will see this as care, simple as that. If it weren't so there would be no need for therapists, counsellors, psychologists, psychiatrists and the like, because who cares?

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  35. My room mate, who is a butch lesbian, uses an STP and so did her ex girlfriend who was a butch lesbian. It's not just FTM's who use STP's. There's STP devices made for woman and one is called the Pstyle for if a woman doesn't want to sit on public toilet seats or for camping or whatever.

    My room mate packs every just as I do. She is not FTM nor feels that she is a man. She just likes packing. She told me that it is a butch thing. I know a lot of butches that don't pack but on the same hand I know a hell of a lot that do. Most of the ones I know do pack and or use an STP. I really don't see what the big deal is about it. I mean to each their own. Just saying...

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  36. Anonymous said...

    FtM's not only have to wipe their pussies, they also have to wash their "STP" device.

    February 18, 2011 3:33 PM


    Yeah, so what is wrong with that? A man washes his dick as a female washes her pussy...Have you not tried it?

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  37. "A rational mind will see this as care, simple as that."

    First, I'd like to mention that my post, to which you are responding, has mysteriously disappeared from the thread. Which always kind of makes me smile, because it means I have said something Dirt can't handle, or doesn't want to admit. Unless you are Dirt, in which case, I commend you on your maternal caring...

    However even as a young child I knew better than to trust the coercive "love" of adults who had a specific agenda in mind for me that was more informed by their needs, insecurities, or prejudices than by actual love. I know you believe you are telling us what's best for us ftm's, but I do think you are wrong and perhaps doing a bit of unwanted mothering, which is not a crime.

    Not all ftm's are full of self-hate, or self-destruction. If anything I've seen alot of people go through destructive phases when they are trying desperately to *not* admit they are trans. Most people I've seen transition go on to become happier, more comfortable, more productive after the initial turbulence of a second puberty.

    I'd like to know what is the measure of a life well-lived? I'd also like to know whether you are more concerned with the loss of us as potential allies for women or more concerned with us losing something our "womanhood". If it's the first, I could understand where you are coming from. If its the second, I think you'd be very hard-pressed to detail which aspects of "womanhood" you can be sure I would have experienced and now cannot. Be sure not to project from your own experience-you have to guarantee me that I have missed out on something as a *woman*, that I now cannot access as a human.

    Theoretically, you'd be happy if I accepted that I am a "woman" but kept my "male" appearance? I mean... we can go ahead and destroy gender norms, and that's a good idea, but it's probably not going to make me want my breasts back, my voice to go higher, my beard to get softer, or for me to lose my muscle mass. I may not have been born a biological male, but I certainly underwent a *very* biological process and it suits me very well.

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  38. "FTM's do nothing but re-inforce binaries, stereotypes whatever, call it what you will."

    Don't be so paranoid. I know tons of ftm's who are total softies, or total fairies, or who decide to be on a low dose of testosterone because they are more comfortable presenting as "other". In fact, that's kinda making me think that I'm really wasting my time here, because I get to witness a pretty evolved bunch of ftm's and queers be totally thoughtful, radical, loving and self-loving. So naturally I get upset when I see us being mischaracterized on this blog. I just have to keep reminding myself that you are mostly a bunch of adult women acting like children, responding to the YouTube videos of actual children as though they represent all of us. I'm too good for this shit.

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  39. I've had comments mysteriously disappear also because we are speaking the truth. She only wants people or should I say her sheeple follow all that she says. None of them want to know the truth or hear the truth. They all think we are miserable with our lives which is SOOOOOOO far from the TRUTH. I am 100% happy with my life and the outcome of my life thus far. Since being on T I am not depressed like I used to be and am SOOOOO much more comfortable with myself. I used to have little to no self-esteem and now you just can't stop me for nothing. I am happier with my life now than I have EVER been. I am finally able to be the REAL me and no one or nothing can change that.

    Nice post by the way! So true!

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  40. "Dirt,
    if YOU were truly happy you wouldn't be sitting here bashing innocent kids (yes, kids, you have bashed, bullied and harrassed children as young as 13 years old).

    It must suck to be so miserable."

    Maybe she is miserable because her g/f left her a couple of months ago.. So sad for Dirt.. She didn't even see it coming..

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  41. Anon @ 11:08pm

    .. I too noticed that the post of yours which I was initially responding to has disappeared. I don't know why as I am not the blog Owner Dirt, as you ask.

    I do not think that females who wish to transition are innately self-destructive. I think they have a disordered way of thinking. The self-destructive behaviour .... ie. the poisoning of oneself with synthetic hormones and the mutilating of one's body is a symptom of this disordered thinking. Self hate DEFINITELY accompanies this disordered thinking as FTM's at the most basic level are trying to rid themselves of themselves, which is woman.

    Yes, I do feel that allies are being lost in this epidemic. Very much so. Important allies ..... women. Strong, powerful, potent women. This is a very important issue, otherwise you'd still be barefoot and pregnant, tied to limited roles and without any legal rights whatsoever ..... and no hope of entertaining this illusory concept of 'transitioning'.

    I don't think you have missed out on any part of your womanhood. It is an existence. You are experiencing it now. You are a biological woman, your experience of womanhood is real and fact, just as mine, the only difference is your experience of womanhood is to cloak yourself in constraints and illusions of 'maleness'. Either way, you are still doing so as a woman. A human woman. You are not missing out on anything, you are female, your experience is female, no matter what choices, decisions, alterations you make.

    If you truly believe ridding yourself of your breasts, deepening your voice and injecting yourself with synthetic testosterone, which is not the same testosterone that runs through the body of a real man, has made you anything more than a medical illusion, then so be it. I just find it very sad that beautiful women actually view this as an answer to their disordered thinking.

    Yes, indeed I would be happy if you kept your male appearance but called yourself, as you are, a woman. Yes, this notion would go a long why in tearing down gender stereotypes. Yes, I do care about you and every other woman enough to believe that this is the way to feel comfortable with one's self and alleviate the disordred thinking that pervades you. Becoming an 'illusory' man is most certainnly not a healthy answer.

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  42. Urgh...I know this is a more or less pointless comment but I can't hold my tongue. The way you said that...It makes me sick even to repeat it "wipe their pussies"...made my head real and sick to my stomach. It sounds so...objectifying, and demeaning, honestly.

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  43. Look this FTM puts her mom's voice and phone number on youtube without her consent.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufCJ91b5FxQ

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  44. @Anon @11:56 PM...Yeah, she really is miserable in her life. She spends countless hours looking up videos of us just to make us look bad. She obviously has no life other than on the internet. So sad, so sad indeed! Maybe if she took all the time that she spends looking up childrens videos on youtube and whatnot, maybe she would have a life and not have to worry about what others are doing. Maybe she wasn't brought up to keep her nose out of other peoples business as with all of her sheeple. She could be doing some good somewhere but yet she continues to exploit children and gets off on it and all of the attention from it. She can sit and say their pictures are of fair use but then again who is the adult here? She is! Yet she exploits these children week after week. I would be ashamed of myself to even exploit one child, but to exploit countless children? She doesn't care if one of these kids commits suicide because of her hate fueled blog. She would totally love it and the attention that came along with it. You can't teach an OLD DOG new tricks though. She is just a washed up has been or at least as has been wanna be and is bitter against men whether they are cis men, FTM or whatnot. She is just one bitter individual who needs some serious psychotherapy. It is her who needs the therapy. So, she doesn't like men in general. She doesn't like trans MEN and she doesn't like trans women (Who are in my opinion are way more woman than she will ever dream to be). She is just one hateful ass individual. She really needs to mind her own damn business and worry about her own damn business. If I were a therapist I wouldn't touch her case as she is too far gone. Too far gone for any kind of human therapy.

    Don't worry about what some sack-o-shit says about us as some are too mentally disabled to understand anything. With someone that mentally disabled, how can one even understand anything else? She is too far gone for any type of reasoning. Watch her videos on youtube. She looks like someone with some kind of neurological problem with some really bad shakes. She can't even speak right. It's like she is just coming out of a stroke or something..and she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the butch lesbian community? All the butches I know laugh at her and make fun of her. Yeah some spokesperson. She can't even hold her head up in youtube videos. ROTFLMAO!

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  45. " Anonymous said...
    Urgh...I know this is a more or less pointless comment but I can't hold my tongue. The way you said that...It makes me sick even to repeat it "wipe their pussies"...made my head real and sick to my stomach. It sounds so...objectifying, and demeaning, honestly."

    I have a hunch dirts objective is exactly how you just described it.

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  46. i'm so glad i've never had to deal with trans people. seems like a giant headache, similar to caring for a mentally disabled child.

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  47. Straight girl here! I found some of those youtube FTM videos really fascinating (the MTF ones also) and I showed some of them to my boyfriend, specifically ones talking about mens feelings/bodies etc etc, to see if he agreed with them and what they were saying.

    He stared blankly at the screen, didn't say anything. Once we watched about three, his exact words:

    "...Is this some kind of weird cult?"

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  48. o_O Dirt feels the need to demean females? I thought she wanted to do the opposite.

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  49. @ Jamilla

    ... it really does seem like some kind of cult. Scary really.

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  50. I'm a lesbian who has always been happy to be a woman, so maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle, but ...

    Gender is not determined by whether you were born with a dick or a pussy. Your gender is stamped in the chromosomes of every single cell in your body. Getting your tits cut off, or a dick sewn on, does not make a woman a man, anymore than getting shot full of silicone tits and having a pseudo-pussy created from the remains of your shorn-off dick makes you a woman.

    I'm not going to call you FTMs freaks or demean you. But I tend to agree with Dirt that you are being led down the path by a bunch of doctors who should probably be permanently barred from practicing medicine. Becoming an FTM is being increasingly marketed to young lesbians as the zenith of butchitude. 'Tain't so, McGee.

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  51. "Be sure not to project from your own experience-you have to guarantee me that I have missed out on something as a *woman*, that I now cannot access as a human."

    anon, your argument is kinda circular don't you think? Because what are you missing out on by NOT transitioning, by NOT being 'male' that you can't access as a human?

    I think you are agreeing with Dirt and the others argument with this statement.

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  52. " Be sure not to project from your own experience-you have to guarantee me that I have missed out on something as a *woman*, that I now cannot access as a human. "

    By mutilating functioning parts of your body, integral not only to your reproductive ability (about which you probably won't care, like me) but to the well-being of your WHOLE body (breasts are part of your lymphatic system, internal organs secern hormones which are integral to our health, and which cannot really be replaced accurately), and injecting guinea-pig drugs, yes, you have missed out. You say woman != human with your statement, right? And that's where all the wrongness is: women are human, and women don't NEED to partake in "women-specific" activities to mantain their humanity, nor do they need to mutilate themselves of female-specific parts to accomplish that goal. Womanhood is not something you can discard as easily as an uterus, it's simply the biological state you were born in, and that is YOU. You have missed out the chance of accepting yourself with your healthy original body. I am sorry for you, though your humanity can never be really lost, only forgotten.

    To all those who say Dirt is hateful, miserable, etc: stop staring at the mirror. Stop seeing only yourself and stop projecting yourself on others. Dirt IS angry, I believe, but that's only human, being angry at murder and injustice, at needless mutilation, at stifling the potential of female humans, at undo every step feminism has brought us, at destroying the lesbian community from the inside, and much more.

    Thank you Anon (the one speaking about needless mutilation) and Jamila for stating the truth.

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  53. "With someone that mentally disabled, how can one even understand anything else? She is too far gone for any type of reasoning. Watch her videos on youtube. She looks like someone with some kind of neurological problem with some really bad shakes. She can't even speak right. It's like she is just coming out of a stroke or something..and she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the butch lesbian community? All the butches I know laugh at her and make fun of her. Yeah some spokesperson. She can't even hold her head up in youtube videos. ROTFLMAO!"

    And that's pretty much the only thing the "non-hateful" FTM side can do: insulting people with personal attacks, because what Dirt says (or at the very least large chunks of it) is too truthful to really be attacked. It's you who are hateful, miserable, coward, catty, and manipulative. It's people like you who want to spread transsexual PROPAGANDA; Dirt is only stating facts.

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  54. @bluetraveler "Stop seeing only yourself and stop projecting yourself on others."

    You would do well to take your own advice, hon. Maybe for YOU having a cosmetic surgery is "needless mutilation" but for others it's something they want and it makes them happy so why are you so worried about it?

    It doesn't harm you and it doesn't harm women. Dirt would like everyone to believe that women are going to stop existing because a handful of people have their chests altered. That's not going to happen.

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  55. "And that's pretty much the only thing the "non-hateful" FTM side can do:"

    Bluewater go look at your own blog if you want to talk about hateful. One does not have to do anymore than look at the pictures which ridicule transfolks to see hateful.. Then when you start attacking and typing "hateful" in its truest form show up in your comments. But I keep forgetting the real reason you are over here is to promote your hateful blog.

    There is an old saying.. If you have one finger pointed at someone else, you have three fingers pointing back at you. Maybe you and dirt are pointing fingers at the ftm's and making fun of the mtf's because you are insecure in yourselves. Kind of the Yee who protesteth too much..

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  56. I dont "make fun" of anyone, this disorder and its sick treatment by the male medical machine are being called out here, brought to the attention of those who've been thinking the same thing for years only too afraid to say so.

    That you feel made fun of when your essential femaleness is brought back to your attention is quite telling and why I am here.

    dirt

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  57. "Maybe for YOU having a cosmetic surgery is "needless mutilation" but for others it's something they want and it makes them happy so why are you so worried about it? "

    Because it backfires (and it still doesn't make you really genuinely happy, otherwise you wouldn't be here)

    "Bluewater go look at your own blog if you want to talk about hateful. One does not have to do anymore than look at the pictures which ridicule transfolks to see hateful.. Then when you start attacking and typing "hateful" in its truest form show up in your comments. But I keep forgetting the real reason you are over here is to promote your hateful blog. "

    Can you quote anything hateful (besides things directed at JDR) I ever said? Disagreement != hate. All the pics I posted where from TRANS SITES (which should kinda tell you something right here).
    I commented and e-mailed Dirt wayyy before making my blog, I signed myself as S. M. if you care. And I comment here because I am interested both in what Dirt writes and others' reactions. I'd still comment if my blog didn't exist; the sole reason it exists is because there aren't many people willing to speak out against this brutality.

    And of course thank you Dirt for what you are doing. I have heard of many people who thought about detransitioning after reading your blog, or making other blogs, or commenting, it's just that not many are open (understandably) about it.

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  58. Dirt,

    I sincerely hope you were talking to me, when I accused you of "making fun" of trans people (those weren't my words, I believe I used "harrassed")

    Anyway, I hope you WERE talking to me because I'm not in fact trans. Actually, I'm a lesbian. LOL I just find it halarious that you automatically assume the only people who disagree with you are trans.

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  59. I see great truth on both sides of the argument here. Some people made very beautifully articulate and understandable points on both sides.

    Ultimately though, no one can delve into another person's mind or live their life or say for sure exactly why they are what they are.

    Lesbians and gays have long been seen as 'mentally confused/deluded' and the result of something gone wrong in childhood i.e abuse or broken homes etc. Many people see being gay as a perverted disorder of the mind that can be 'fixed' and has it's root cause bound within somthing psychological or broken etc. They believe you can be fixed as long as you understand why you are that way.

    Not to veer too off topic here, but there is a brilliant speech I once read by a feminist who said that she wished that all who had known discrimination of any kind were immune from practising the same on others and perpetuatuating the culture of 'isms'. She said she did not wish to convert anyone into anything but wished that people would simply learn to respect the differences between them. It was a powerful speech and I never forget it. What a woman!

    It's all a bit of a system of control sometimes. If something does not quite fit the ideal or cannot be understood or threathens a settled establishment, then it has to be explained away and a cure or solution of some kind has to be developed etc. Christians will tell gays they care too and are just trying to save them or show them the 'truth'. They'll say 'there's no such thing as being gay, it's all in your head and doesn't make sense. Gays can't have babies, there's your evidence of how warped it is, it's a freakish abomination against nature' etc. But at the end of the day human nature and human biology is far too complex to map out. No one knows 'why' about many things, but they still exist.

    Both sides made great arguments. But I could never side 100% with something, solid like black and white. Nothing in life is black and white.

    I'd like to say that on the subject of mutilation or body modification through surgery or hormones of any kind - whatever anyone thinks about it, at the deepest level of reality, it is indeed mutilation. You may not 'like' your body, but your body is healthy and putting a knife or foreign hormones to it is classed as mutilation. As far as nature is concerned, it's mutilation. Whether the body modification is for aesthetics, art, tribal culture or personal expression, it still counts as mutilation to mother nature. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, merely that is indeed mutilation and is not 'natural'.

    As for the 'is this some kind of weird cult' thing. Exactly the same could be said about gays and probably has at some point...how ironic. Within the lesbian community itself there has been discrimination of butches(Good example in the brilliant movie 'If These Walls Could Talk 2') who are seen as manish abominations that 'ordinary' lesbians are horrified by. It's just ironic. There's good points on both sides, but it's ironic. Anyone can just say 'I don't understand how you can be this or that, so you must just be fake or twisted etc'.

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  60. Anon @ 6:16pm

    Many things in life aren't black and white that's for sure huh?

    But you cannot compare transitioning to being gay. Being a lesbian or a gay male does not alter your physical state. And the persecution of gays through religious doctrine was done to keep the patriarchal, capitalist order, in the same way birth control is still condemned by the catholic church. Large families were needed to create dependents and thus the need for work and to sell one's labor. Religion has always been a tool of the capitalist class.

    That being said, I do not critique the idea of 'transitioning' because of some hidden agenda, as religion did to gays. I do so because, young women are deforming themselves without very little foresight and knowledge of long term consequences. It is not as simple as saying 'I don't know what anyone else is thinking' and therefore I should say nothing. These women suffer from disordered thinking, and the answer to this mental state seems increasingly to be to mutilate one's self. Even if it were true that homosexuality was indeed a form of disordered thinking, a homosexual does not inject themselves with poison to remedy the disordered thinking.

    Schizophrenics have disordered thinking too. Many believe themselves to be angels, demons, spys, messengers from god ..... should their treatment be to try and match their physical state with the disordered thinking? What if someone diagnosed with schizophrenia, who believes himself to be an angel, would like prosthetic wings attached to his back, or the one who thinks himself a demon, should he have fake horns attached to his skull? Is this the treatment we should offer those with disordered thinking? Clearly no. Why then is physical alterations the remedy offered to young women who believe themselves to be men? The patriarchal capitalist machin e marches forward.

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  61. "Schizophrenics have disordered thinking too. Many believe themselves to be angels, demons, spys, messengers from god ..... should their treatment be to try and match their physical state with the disordered thinking?"

    I'm not sure that this comparison is appropriate and it might be a little obtuse on your part. Usually schizophrenics have delusions of grandeur. They often believe they are somehow more important than a regular human. I don't see ftm's claiming this or presenting the kind of paranoid and potentially violent behavior i've seen in schizophrenics. I think gender belongs in a different category than
    than fantastical creatures do because we all get a gender.

    I can't help but feel that you are only capable of looking through the lens of feminist theory, and I don't believe that is the only way to see the world. Your claim that our "selves" are destroyed because of transition makes it very clear to me that you feel your "self" is "woman". I feel that's a semantics based argument, and meaning cannot be created for someone else without their consent.

    As far as calling myself a woman with the way I look now, that seems...weird. Would I not then be getting male privilege *and* the benefits of sisterhood? How would that make the world better? is it more important for me to call myself a woman or to be a really good "man" in the world? How can I be an ally to you if I cannot be an ally to myself and accept my desire for male physicality?

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  62. The only "truth" is "your" "truth". You delete the truth from trans men. You don't want your followers to know the truth...only "your" truth..all what's in "your" head. I have seen comments come and go on this blog and it's pathetic. This will be deleted also as are other trans guys posts. It's okay though. A few people's "truths" or delusions don't bother us any. We are here so you might as well get used to it. Deleting comments isn't gonna make us go away...ROTFLMAO!!!

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  63. To 9.38pm comment:

    Gay people may not change their bodies, but within society they are still viewed to a large extent as mentally deluded and as far as biology goes gay does not make sense within nature, only that where they are not a danger to themselves or others, no one will lock them up for it. Schizophrenic is a danger to themsevles and society, that is why they are classed as mad and able to be locked up half the time. You could say 'they're getting surgery/injecting hormones so are a danger to themsevles' but by that reasoning then we would then be locking up people who get nose jobs or lipo and also 95% of bodybuilders too. Also, a schizophrenic is like an extremist - they believe that the universe ends at the edge of their nose and therefore everything they think/feel/believe is the ultimate reality of life and living. Balanced people are open to other peoples ideas. They may not accept it in the end, but they are willing to listen and willing to consider it truthfully.

    Thw way I see it is that Dirt is doing a service to people through her blogs by providing an alternative ideal/option. But people should ultimatey be free to choose whether or not they they take a different path and be respected for it. To say 'well, I really thought about it, but I really do think hormones/surgery are the way forward'.

    But can anyone see inside the human brain, inside the deep biology or electrical wiring of a body to say what's real and isn't. Believing you are an angel or demon is not the same thing, the belief comes on suddenly and has not been present since early childhood. For example, I knew I liked women since I was a tiny child, somehting in me was attracted to women even though at that age it obviously wasn't sexual attraction etc. I think many trans people could be the same, it's a strong biological energy that compels someone towards something - the common word for a powerful compelling towards something you do not even understand is 'instinct'. Instict is a blind, automatic urge within a person that stems from a deep biological 'script'. So powerful that all the oppression in the world cannot kill it and you will neer be at peace if you try to deny it or smother it. Yes, it's not natural to cut your breasts off or take T, but what in this world of medical intervention and scientific advancement. But it's like how gays could never had children before and now through science they can etc.

    I don't believe all gender is socially conctructed - at a basic level it is genetically hard-wired and so ingrained that you have as much chance changing it as changing the colour of your eyes or hair. It is a natural state of being, a natural energy that nothing can eliminate. Has anyone heard that story of the boy who was born with damaged genitals and his parents decided to raise him as a girl because they thought that gender is a social contruct and he won't know. Well that 'girl' grew knowing in spite of what everyone told her that she was a boy, she just knew she wasn't a girl.

    Stealth isn't healthy though, erasing your history isn't healthy for sure. That's a good point.

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  64. I don't think it's realistic to compare being "trans" with schizophrenia. "Trans" is more like being neurotic combined with complete absorbsion with oneself - It's "I, I, I and me, me, me" in their videos.
    I'm just wondering why there were no "trans" people running around before modern medicine came up with it? There have always been mention of gay people, Intersexed people, cross-dressing, etc. throughout written history, but never "trans."
    In Middle Ages in Europe for instance, you had Lesbian couples where one partner might dress, work and completely pass as male in society, but stuff like that happened for safety reasons (like not getting burned as a witch.)

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  65. This is really interesting and everyone here has interesting and valid comments.

    But regarding the gay people have been around forever - when I was very, very young child I thought I was going to grow up, get married to a man, have kids etc. Even though I had desires/compulsions towards only women and hated the idea of my future, as a child I did not realise there was any other option and felt that was just how it would be. I felt consigned to my fate, but felt confused about why I didn't feel optimistic about it at all. I was only very small, I didn't know what a lesbian was, that lesbians existed anywhere etc. At this point I was going to be a straight woman because that was the only option I thought existsed in the world, there was nothing else to do or be. Then I discovered lesbians and butch lesbians and all the rest of it and suddenly I understood exactly what I was and why I felt like that.

    I imagine trans could be similar. If you're told there are only men and women and you must be one or the other, you never imagine there is anything else, you consign yourself to your fate, but will spend years of your life wondering why you feel different or why it doesn't seem to fit etc. Then when someone brave enough to come out and talk about how they really feel appears, then maybe others hear this person and think 'yes, I feel that way too but could never make sense of it' etc. At the end of the day unless you interview every butch woman throughout history to ask them how they really secretly felt in thier life, you can't say for sure they never felt trans but simply consigned themselves to their fate because thy never imagined there was any other choice...

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  66. Speaking of schizophrenia, like the blind we also never see any trans schizophrenics. There are deaf schizophrenics, blind schizophrenics, even gay schizophrenics, but for some reason trans seems to have just jumped over schizophrenics. How does this "birth defect" manage to cherry pick its hosts???

    And at Anon@4:42, no, living a constant lie and worrying daily about the lies you are covering up isnt mentally healthy.

    dirt

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  67. ANON@7:55,

    Which is why we need to work to change society and expands the narrow hyper feminine notions of what "woman" is so woman in all her forms exists to us all.

    Drugging and butchering females into faux men isnt going to accomplish that. And speaking as a Butch woman, I never felt "trans" as trans is something created in a lab by men.

    I did however feel based on societal gender norms that I should really be a "boy". Think being the operative word. With maturity, education and the love of some beautiful Femmes, I understood the truth. There was anything wrong with me, but the society that refuses to portray me out of fear. No drugs or removal of healthy body parts were required.

    dirt

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  68. To the Anon who said homosexuality is not natural: Homosexuality does make sense in a homoSOCIAL species like ours; in fact, looking at bonobos I have wondered wheter it really is less prevalent than heterosexuality (I believe the real numbers would be close to equal). To continue a species, you don't need all the population engaged in reproduction, just a significant fraction (1/2 ? 1/4? ). And of course there are gays and lesbians interested in having children, and straight people who don't (like me)...considering how far technology has come, it should not be a problem anymore for a same-sex couple to adopt or have a child (I personally think more people, of all stripes, should adopt more).
    While there are many transpeople who are not grandiose, or not as grandiose as someone who believes to be an angel, it's a delusion the same. My main concern though is those transitioning, because you can't completely undo what you did, mutilation...though you cango on. Saying it's weird for a FTM to be called "female" or "woman" is nonsense: a transitioned FTM is like a woman with very intense PCOS, not a male; in a nudist beach, no FTM would pass. You have male secondary characteristics, which happens in some people like PCOS women and MTFs have female ones like Klinefelter men/intersex (the classification is a bit debated now, but still). In the end, transitioning brings you closer to an intersex state, but you can't really change sex. And it's an artificially induced mutation nonetheless, unlike what happens with real PCOS women (some of whom do transition), many intersex people, etc.

    "Your claim that our "selves" are destroyed because of transition makes it very clear to me that you feel your "self" is "woman""

    No, your "self" is what you were born as, your unmutilated BODY, simply that. You are a woman (or intersex at the very best), under biology. That's what I'm referring to, not to any metaphysical sense of self. My self, like all selves, can't really be "sexed", I have a female body and thus I'm a woman.

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  69. "Has anyone heard that story of the boy who was born with damaged genitals and his parents decided to raise him as a girl because they thought that gender is a social contruct and he won't know. Well that 'girl' grew knowing in spite of what everyone told her that she was a boy, she just knew she wasn't a girl. "

    poor David Reimer's story has been twisted and exploited by the transactivists (and they TOTALLY IGNORED one similar story with very different outcome). I've talked about it somewhere else, but basically, if I had been David, I would have transitioned too: a "female" is just a castrated man, uh?

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  70. To Dirt: I suppose it does make sense that maybe the reason people are thinking they were born 'in the wrong body' or 'should have been a man' is down to the fact that society dictates only men can or should be mascuine so it can be very difficult to be very masculine yet still think of yourself as female perhaps. I myself never had shame about my body until I hit sort of 15-16 years old, which happens to be exactly the age when you're being conditioned by society to fit in and be normal etc.

    To Bluetraveller: Both your points made sense and I don't have enough knowledge on the topics to counter them in any way...but certainly, they make sense and I can't see how they might not be true.

    I wondered though this may be off topic a little - isn't competitive female bodybuilding effectively also transition, minus the legal implementations? To take such a powerful cocktail of drugs that your voice breaks, your face changes shape, your breasts vanish etc...yet still think of yourself as a woman and feminine etc. I know this has nothing to do with ftm related issues, but those women are also transitioning, just not legally...there isnt really much difference other than that those women are desperately trying to make themselves still pass as women(not always successfully). It just strikes me as very interesting, but off topic I know...

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  71. Females arent "masculine", even females with muscles.

    Women who take 'roids do masculinize in the same way women who take testosterone do.

    There is something inherently wrong with society when we unfemale females due to such things as musculature or clothing. And it is in that "wrong" that the trans disorder is born and transition becomes possible.

    dirt

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  72. "There is something inherently wrong with society when we unfemale females due to such things as musculature or clothing."

    ...and beards too? And low voices? I feel that the piece of real-estate you are fighting over is getting increasingly small. If you are angry because you view transpeople as intruders who are narrowing the definition of what it mean to be female, I understand, but then this just becomes an argument over semantics. If I am a woman because I still have a "pussy", that just becomes a word to me. This has no meaning in my life. Then I am just a woman who has male privilege in the world.

    If all secondary sex characteristics can be present in men or women, then the rub seems to be about "women" calling themselves "men" and causing existential despair in those who have all along just accepted that the word "woman" means something.

    But there is something definite in the biological process of transitioning. I won't argue that this was a natural process-I know I brought it on myself. But I can say that I felt processes occurring during this induced puberty which I observed as being VERY similar to what I saw teenage males going through in puberty. Angst, rebellion, euphoria, brazen posturing, insecurity, sullen-ness, self-obsession, much greater and sometimes irrational libido. Added to that were the physical changes of acne, oily skin, change in hair, skin, nails, muscles, narrower hips, wider shoulders, thicker neck, jawline etc. You can say that there is nothing natural about transitioning but I believe very strongly that there are natural parallels, because both processes involve the increase of angrogens in the body. And clearly both male and female bodies will make use of that substance. Very, very few females have the ability to have the physical characteristics I have at this point.

    Anyway, I think this conversation is very interesting and I appreciate the respectful discourse.

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  73. "a transitioned FTM is like a woman with very intense PCOS, not a male; in a nudist beach, no FTM would pass."

    I'm wondering exactly how this matters. To you, I mean. If it does not matter to we who have transitioned.

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  74. "No, your "self" is what you were born as, your unmutilated BODY, simply that."

    I reject this entirely, Bluetraveler. In the first place, self and body as words have two entirely different definitions. Secondly, I still have a self, though my body has changed. You are free to disagree and tell me I'm not my "self" anymore, but I'm not sure what meaning this is supposed to have. I can see the great value in accepting yourself as you are, but I think this process is available to transpeople regardless of whether they change their bodies.

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  75. It matters because while you may not see the dangers of transition, there are other out there who do and are compelled to act.

    dirt

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  76. Anon@4:33,

    A self that is no longer yourself due to the physiological changes synthetic testosterone has altered/dulled.

    dirt

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  77. "the common word for a powerful compelling towards something you do not even understand is 'instinct'. Instinct is a blind, automatic urge within a person that stems from a deep biological 'script'. So powerful that all the oppression in the world cannot kill it and you will never be at peace if you try to deny it or smother it."

    This is beautifully spoken and sums up the reasons why I transitioned better than I ever could have. I did because I would. It's extremely hard to convey, especially when the paradigm of transness follows one tragic script-so much so that many transpeople themselves adopt that tragic story as our own to gain access to sanction for physical transition.

    I never hated my body, but I always wanted to appear "male". The weird thing was that I thought I *did* appear much more male than I actually appeared. When I realized what physical changes were possible, it was a total no-brainer. If there were more stories and examples out there of ftm's who never particularly hated being "female" (or believed they were female) or hated their bodies, it would have helped me alot. These people are afraid to speak out because it goes against everything
    society has established as the necessary trans story. One must be ready to kill themselves before they are allowed to transition. Why?
    Because it's inconvenient for the rest of society to have people transitioning. It's simpler to believe we know what to expect from another person based on their chromosomes. But we don't know shit, and that's what's so upsetting for people.

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  78. "A self that is no longer yourself due to the physiological changes synthetic testosterone has altered/dulled."


    I agree that certain things have changed. For instance, my emotions are processed differently. This, I like less than other changes from T. Then again, the absolute *holy hell* of PMS was actually making me feel suicidal for the few years before i transitioned. Not to mention really affecting my relationships and depression. I do not particularly feel that the hijacking of rationality I experienced during those 2 weeks out of every month was my "self" either.

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  79. anon @ 4:22


    you sound like you have a fetish. pubescent boy fetish??

    your experience is female, nothing can change that.

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  80. "you sound like you have a fetish. pubescent boy fetish??

    your experience is female, nothing can change that."

    Maybe, I dunno. I suppose I had crushes on young boys when I was young. My relationships are all with adult females now, so my fetishes seem like a moot point. If I psychologically dissected myself to the point that I could chalk my instinct for transition up to a fetish, would it make a difference to me or to you?

    Is this your way of discrediting me or anything I've said, because it seems you haven't responded with anything of substance. Were my experience to be judged as "female" by you or the Goddess herself, it would not make a difference to me or my experience. So why does it make a difference to you?

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  81. anon @ 4:22

    [But I can say that I felt processes occurring during this induced puberty which I observed as being VERY similar to what I saw teenage males going through in puberty. Angst, rebellion, euphoria, brazen posturing, insecurity, sullen-ness, self-obsession, much greater and sometimes irrational libido. Added to that were the physical changes of acne, oily skin, change in hair, skin, nails, muscles...]



    ummm, on what planet are you living on that these are exclusive to boys during puberty??? you can't be serious with this argument.

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  82. @ Anon February 20, 2011 8:28 PM



    "Is this your way of discrediting me or anything I've said, because it seems you haven't responded with anything of substance. Were my experience to be judged as "female" by you or the Goddess herself, it would not make a difference to me or my experience. So why does it make a difference to you?"

    I guess you won't go all apesh#t on someones ass when they refer to you as "she" then....

    I wonder if you are so blase about being seen as and referred to as a man....I doubt it.

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  83. Anon@ 4:22

    'Woman' means something to me, because for the vast majority of human history being labelled a woman because of your biology was also to be thought of as wrong, disabled, irrational, thoughtless, useful for only a few things, weak, stupid, a piece of property, childlike, uninspired, I could go on. I don't believe there is some despairing delusion that hangs over me about the existence of 'woman'. Perhaps in a perfect world that has sustained some sort of utopic sex gender playing field from day dot, I could agree with you and say, that the notion of 'woman' is just a constructed concept too. However, that just isn't the case.
    This is why I believe the arguments for transistioning are very modern and very western 'affluent' centric, if I may put it in those terms. The young women caught up in this epidemic are privileged by all the women who came before them.
    While I do believe that there are some people with genuine and pervasive body dysmorphic syndrome who wish to get rid of their boobs etc, .... the sheer amount of young women on these youtube vids, suggest it is 'less' than that and in so many ways it shows that feminism has somehow failed, that is why it is such an important issue for feminists. I didn't ask to be a feminist, I am a woman because that is my sex at birth. This birth sex then became 'important' because of what it denoted due to 'woman's' existence in our patriarchal society. As I think it is something 'less' then genuine body dysmorphia afflicting these young women, exemplified by the volume that can be found on youtube it worries me that these 'trans-men' are basically saying that if they like 'boy' things they must be a boy. I thought we were living in the 21st Century not the 18th. As such, the inferences I draw from the trans epidemic are that woman are once again seen as defective, wrong and useless, only this time the perpetrators are young, confused women themselves, it's like some type of 'neo-mysogny' for the 21st century! Maybe going 'stealth' as it described here, includes not only forgetting your own individual past, but the past of women in general who brought all women today to a more privileged position than what they struggled in.

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  84. Canadian @ 12:15

    AGREED. That's the funny thing to me. When you call trans people out, suddenly they pretend to be so nonchalant about the whole issue. "Oh it's really not that important to me what sex I am."


    Oh ok, so that's why you've changed all of your legal documentation? That's why you're reaching for the T needle as you finish that sentence? Are those top surgery scars for decoration?

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  85. "ummm, on what planet are you living on that these are exclusive to boys during puberty??? you can't be serious with this argument."

    Ummm. I'm not sure I catch your drift. Are you saying that female puberty is the same as male puberty or that males continue to experience these physical effects after puberty? Or what? Are you trying to say that there is nothing biologically similar to male puberty about androgen's effect on a "female" body? That seems very silly.

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  86. "I guess you won't go all apesh#t on someones ass when they refer to you as "she" then....

    No, but why would they? That hasn't happened in years and years.

    "I wonder if you are so blase about being seen as and referred to as a man....I doubt it."

    Well, I guess I am blase about it now, because I always am seen and referred to as a man. Don't I have a right to be just as blase as the next person?

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  87. "Oh ok, so that's why you've changed all of your legal documentation? That's why you're reaching for the T needle as you finish that sentence? Are those top surgery scars for decoration?"

    I don't have scars personally, but that's neither here nor there. Let's see, T needle-once a week, takes 5 minutes. Documents-all done years ago. What's your desperate need to portray us as deranged, tragic junkies when many us of
    are clearly not? If there were good basis for your anti-trans argument, you could maintain your dignity and mine without resorting to vitriolic seething.

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  88. anon @ 3:47


    During puberty, do girls not get acne? Do they not rebel, feel angsty, feel insecure? Does their libido not change? Does their hair and skin not change? Are they not also self-obsessed?

    As I said, the manner in which you spoke longingly about pubescent boys still sounds fetishistic.

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  89. "Maybe going 'stealth' as it described here, includes not only forgetting your own individual past, but the past of women in general who brought all women today to a more privileged position than what they struggled in."

    I see your point and I respect your willingness to take the time to explain.

    I don't have a good answer for this. I guess I feel that my battle is for transpeople, not *women* first and foremost. Given the obvious mistrust of transpeople found on this list, I see not alot of reason to stop fighting for us to be seen as whole people with dignity, not deranged fetishists who hate themselves. The characterization here of ftm's has been the following things:

    We are committing suicide by transitioning.

    We are deranged.

    We have been mislead.

    We hate women.

    We are disgusting.

    We are fake.

    We are desperate for attention.

    We are selfish.

    We are pathetic.

    We will never have love because no one would want us.

    We'll spend our whole lives lonely.

    We will NEVER, EVER BE REAL MEN. EVER!!
    (This last one I like to think is being screeched out in the tone of Howard Dean's infamous campaign-losing scream.)

    The list goes on and on.. I see alot of parallels between the way we are seen and the way gay people were seen 50 years ago (and still are seen in some places). As such, there is no reason for me to suspect that, suddenly, irrational hatred and condemnation of trans-people is any different. Same shit, different day.

    There are legitimate feminist issues at stake in the issue of many young ftm's transitioning, but trust will never be gained by throwing regular, old-fashioned seething hatred at us.

    I also feel the feminist movement has made mistakes along it's way that have, essentially, caused me to not trust it to find it's way forward without bias and ignorance informing much of it's agenda. Too much has been about upper class white women. Policing of butchness in the early days. Too much willful ignorance of class, for way too long. Even worse, I feel that "the personal is political" has been stretched into a place where any discomfort experienced by even the most privileged women can be called a feminist issue. Where is the accountability? When will the movement learn from it's own history?

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  90. "During puberty, do girls not get acne? Do they not rebel, feel angsty, feel insecure? Does their libido not change? Does their hair and skin not change? Are they not also self-obsessed?"

    But girls do not become markedly more muscular, start sprouting hair, have a deep voice. Are you just being obtuse or was I not clear? None of your above mentioned symptoms were particularly pleasant for me on testosterone, but all the ones I mention above were welcomed.

    "As I said, the manner in which you spoke longingly about pubescent boys still sounds fetishistic.'

    And I believe I responded to this already.

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  91. anon @ 5:01


    "But I can say that I felt processes occurring during this induced puberty which I observed as being VERY similar to what I saw teenage males going through in puberty"


    did you forget what you said?

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  92. Trans people cannot be compared to gay people or the struggle and oppression of gay people in any way.

    Being gay is a naturally inevitible state of being. Trans people are drugs and surgery. Neither of which are possible if you don't have the MONEY. So don't any of you top surgery girls even start talking about privilege.

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  93. anon @ 5:01

    There are plenty girls who sprout hair under their lip, have deeper voices, are naturally bigger or more muscular than average. There are some boys who never get facial hair, have high voices, are naturally more slender, have hips, etc etc

    What it seems like to me is you are saying that stereotypically male traits are superior to stereotypically female traits. Those who have the opposite of them should feel...what? Self hate?

    Key word: stereotypical.

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  94. Probably when they are older and look back, many FtM's will feel like they kind of wimped out and sold out by trying to "transition" into something which was never possible.
    I'm in my 40's now, and my whole life have gone regularly to the gym (not hard-core bodybuilding.) It's my experience that it's way cooler to go thru life as a woman who is more toned + muscular than average as opposed to becoming a strange little hairy "man" like for those who take "T." Seriously, look around at your gym, and I bet you'll see not only average-looking women, androgenous/Butch women but also a few really toned, slightly more muscular than average, very feminine women who everyone is secretly watching.

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  95. "There are legitimate feminist issues at stake in the issue of many young ftm's transitioning, but trust will never be gained by throwing regular, old-fashioned seething hatred at us. "

    Anon, if you don't have reading comprehension, whose fault is it? Just point one instance of hatred in this thread. Things must always be backed up.

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  96. "
    "No, your "self" is what you were born as, your unmutilated BODY, simply that."

    I reject this entirely, Bluetraveler. In the first place, self and body as words have two entirely different definitions. Secondly, I still have a self, though my body has changed. You are free to disagree and tell me I'm not my "self" anymore, but I'm not sure what meaning this is supposed to have. I can see the great value in accepting yourself as you are, but I think this process is available to transpeople regardless of whether they change their bodies."

    What's with this weird Cartesian dualism nonsense, aka the mind/body split? It's so démode nowadays.
    And no, you can't destroy your self, you can just muck it up. And no, being a woman doesn't mean doing "womanly" things, it just means to be.

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  97. All this queer theory sentiment being thrown around by trans people these days, I had no idea this was still the 90s!

    Okay so will the glowsticks and LSD lollipops be provided at the rave or should we bring our own? And should I dye my hair neon pink or neon blue? Oh wait if I dyed it blue then that would mean I was supposed to have been born male so...I guess I'm stuck with pink!

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  98. "It's my experience that it's way cooler to go thru life as a woman who is more toned + muscular than average as opposed to becoming a strange little hairy "man" like for those who take "T."

    But you actually don't have both experiences to compare, do you? So what you are saying is completely useless.

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  99. "What it seems like to me is you are saying that stereotypically male traits are superior to stereotypically female traits. Those who have the opposite of them should feel...what? Self hate?"

    Certainly not. The stereotypically male traits suit me, but perhaps you are not drawn towards that physicality? I would not judge you either way. Why would I advocate self-hate for anyone?

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  100. In western Europe there are many beaches where people (men and women) walk around nude or topless, etc. Believe me, a toned female body will be admired much more than a small, hairy, indefinable body will.
    American FtM's seem to try to mimmick a more macho hairy-type man, but in Europe most men(I mean real men)shave most of their body hair off. European women don't really like men with body hair.

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  101. "Believe me, a toned female body will be admired much more than a small, hairy, indefinable body will."

    That's lovely, and I'm glad you are feeling gratified by that admiration. If that was all this issue is about, I could set my feet up and rest now because my perfect body is admired completely by the one that I love...

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  102. "So don't any of you top surgery girls even start talking about privilege."

    This is funny. I earned my top surgery making minimum wage.

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  103. Anon@February 21, 2011 3:53 AM

    Seriously, this fake obtuseness is really boring, you need to quit while you are behind.....

    Once you strip away the false science and do not respond to the manufactured aggrievement of this group, all that is left is the alleged sacredness of their "feelings" and their justification that they should be allowed to do what they want to.
    They are asking society at large to accomodate what amounts to a personal choice. Their own admissions on this blog that they feign GID to get what they want only reinforces the fact that this is a personal choice.

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  104. "and their justification that they should be allowed to do what they want to.
    They are asking society at large to accomodate what amounts to a personal choice. Their own admissions on this blog that they feign GID to get what they want only reinforces the fact that this is a personal choice."

    I don't think I chose to be trans, but I did choose to transition physically. And you are not in control of what I do, so I don't need justification or sanction from you or anybody else. Thank god, because you, Canadian, seriously sound like the most bitter and vitriolic individual I've ever met. Hope you can deal with that somehow, someday.

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  105. "I don't think I chose to be trans, but I did choose to transition physically. And you are not in control of what I do, so I don't need justification or sanction from you or anybody else. Thank god, because you, Canadian, seriously sound like the most bitter and vitriolic individual I've ever met. Hope you can deal with that somehow, someday."

    The trans community seeks justification for their choices from society at large in the form of legislation, so yes you are seeking justification. Can you point out which of my comments are "bitter and vitriolic".

    PS: We have not "met". Responding to a post on the internet does not constitute meeting or knowing someone. I guess I have joined dirt and blues traveller on the trans 'sh*t' list.

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  106. anon @ 1:44

    if that's true than that's truly disgusting, wasteful, and pathetic.

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  107. "I can say that I felt processes occurring during this induced puberty which I observed as being VERY similar to what I saw teenage males going through in puberty. Angst, rebellion, euphoria, brazen posturing, insecurity, sullen-ness, self-obsession, much greater and sometimes irrational libido."

    Describes my FEMALE teenaged years perfectly, except that in addition to all that, I got into a lot of fistfights. So don't go claiming those emotions are male, because that's just plain ridiculous.

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  108. "Describes my FEMALE teenaged years perfectly, except that in addition to all that, I got into a lot of fistfights. So don't go claiming those emotions are male, because that's just plain ridiculous."

    so what's your point here? you are the same as a male with male muscular development and male secondary sex characteristics? are you posturing with that fistfight comment? There is no comparison between the muscle development of a female body on testosterone and one that's not. If you are convinced that you are the same, you might want to consider transitioning...

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  109. I agree with Anon @February 21, 2011 10:21 AM who said "Probably when they are older and look back, many FtM's will feel like they kind of wimped out and sold out by trying to "transition" into something which was never possible."

    Trends and fads come and go, and I suspect that being a "transman" will be as passe' as having a tribal armband tattoo in about 10 years.

    Here are my predictions: the next phase will be "transition" without drugs or surgery: people will live as their "preferred" or "self-identified" gender without the medical interventions, and the next phase after that-maybe 20 years from now- will be the total abolition of gender stereotypes that have completely broken down (which will probably be a good thing, in my opinion.)

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  110. "so what's your point here? you are the same as a male with male muscular development and male secondary sex characteristics? are you posturing with that fistfight comment?"

    My point, O Obtuse One, is that the Anon I quoted named certain emotions and behaviors as specifically male, and claimed they were linked to male puberty, not female. That is demonstrably false, as GIRLS experiencing a FEMALE puberty can have exactly the same experience, no artificial hormones necessary. Work on your reading comprehension. (Also, it is patently ridiculous to call the results of dumping a lot of synthetic testosterone into a female body the same as male puberty. You will never know what that really is, because you are not male.)

    And I am certainly not posturing with the fistfight comment. It's just a factual statement. Since girls with typical female hormone levels can have the same propensity towards behaviors considered stereotypically "male," it's kinda stupid to connect those behaviors to sex, whether it's a person's actual birth sex, or some medically enabled approximation of the opposite sex.

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  111. "the Anon I quoted named certain emotions and behaviors as specifically male, and claimed they were linked to male puberty, not female. That is demonstrably false, as GIRLS experiencing a FEMALE puberty can have exactly the same experience, no artificial hormones necessary."

    Oh jeez, my point was not that these aspects of my synthetically-induced puberty were desirable or better than a female puberty. Who cares either way, really? The EMOTIONS of puberty are inconvenient. The other physical changes that came along with it are *markedly* different than a female. How many times do I have to explain this? And actually, you *don't* have the experience of transitioning, so you can go on until you are blue in the face telling me I'll never know this process is really like because my chromosomes are xx, you don't actually know either. I'd say it's close enough for me!

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  112. "people will live as their "preferred" or "self-identified" gender without the medical interventions"

    This is already happening.All over the place. and this...

    "...the total abolition of gender stereotypes that have completely broken down"

    Will be a good thing if it actually happens but it won't actually change people's desire/need to have a certain physicality in the world. That's a different issue.

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  113. "Oh jeez, my point was not that these aspects of my synthetically-induced puberty were desirable or better than a female puberty."

    That's a straw man. I didn't say you called those aspects of your synthetic "puberty" better than anything associated with a female puberty. I called you out for suggesting that you had some sort of uniquely male emotional experience, when in fact you had one that is common to both sexes. The physical changes you induced in yourself by means of synthetic hormones were not the subject of my post. Get it now?

    "And actually, you *don't* have the experience of transitioning.."

    I never claimed that I did.

    "so you can go on until you are blue in the face telling me I'll never know this process is really like because my chromosomes are xx, you don't actually know either."

    You know what it's like to transition, and you may also know what it's like to pass as male. Neither of those things is the same as *being* male. You have no more idea what that's really like than a male transitioner does about what being female is really like.

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  114. "You have no more idea what that's really like than a male transitioner does about what being female is really like."

    And apparently, men and women are ALSO unable to describe what it's like to be men and women. Because they've never had any other experience than their own, so there is nothing to compare it against. So I'm not sure how anything is relevant except a person's individual experience and whether or not they are happy and fulfilled in their lives.

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  115. "So I'm not sure how anything is relevant except a person's individual experience and whether or not they are happy and fulfilled in their lives."

    True. And since "transition" is physical mutilation, I have trouble seeing how a transitioner could really be happy.
    (And if you say I'm projecting here, well, you must have an extremely masochistic personality here)

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  116. "I have trouble seeing how a transitioner could really be happy."

    Really? Maybe that's because you haven't met all of us. I'd say hinging your potential happiness on any one thing is probably a mistake, but I don't think transitioning has the final word either way. Frankly, I don't trust you. You say your family saved you from transitioning, but that's only your personal experience. Stop believing it's the same as anybody else's experience.

    My family embraced me when I finally told them the truth about me. They had never felt closer to me than when I finally spoke my truth to them, and they told me they had seen signs of my true self throughout my childhood. We have never been closer than we are now.

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  117. And what were your true self's signs?

    ReplyDelete

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