Change Your World-NOT your Body

Tuesday, February 22, 2011

FTM Experience-Trans Experience

Last night I received an angrily defensive comment towards the new video I posted from a transman that I chose to delete, I did however want to briefly discuss it here today. The gist of the comment was that the "butch experience" and the "ftm experience" have nothing to do with one another. The commenter obviously took offense because s/he identified with what I said, I a Butch woman who through maturity, work and the love of a few good Femmes learned to love the woman I am. No drugs involved and certainly no unnecessary removal of choice healthy body parts needed. It is living and loving myself that is the biggest fear and threat to the trans community it would seem, hence all "trans in denial" comments this blog gets saturated with.

I will be the first to agree the "butch experience" and the "ftM experience" is quite different, one leads to the love of one's self while the other pushes the envelope in female self hared. What they share are the feelings of disgust, alienation and confusion that later gives way for the Butch's enlightenment and later makes way for the ftM's self hating transmutation. And, if as so many ftM's believe that I am "trans in denial", then they too believe by my example that "trans feelings" can be worked through and arent something one is born with. Then the question is, what causes one self hating female to work through her negative female feelings and another to plunge into the ocean of female self hatred?

dirt



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186 comments:

  1. Surely the question is why they assume that everyone shares their experience? Why assume that, just because they feel a certain way, that everyone else in their position would feel the same?

    That's why I disagree with the "trans in denial" comments. Even if trans is a real thing, or whatever, just because it works for them doesn't mean it works for you.

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  2. And as of yet, there is no verifiable proof that it works for anyone else.

    dirt

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  3. & why, if trans and gay are unrelated (with which i agree) are we forced to be grouped together in the bs LGBTetc. community? so insulting to me (a lesbian)

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  4. And, of course, what works for you doesn't mean it works for them.

    It's pretty obvious that, if pro-trans people can't claim you're a "trans in denial" because they don't know your experience, then you can't claim that their claims are false, because you don't know their experience.

    Even if it's true of you (and there's no verifiable proof that it is), that doesn't make it true of anyone else.

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  5. @Mouse,

    Because queer/trans have co-opted gay and lesbian identities and space.

    dirt

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  6. I dont need know the anorexic experience to know its a mental disorder KK.

    dirt

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  7. But you can see the side-effects of anorexia. If untreated, it leads to death, via a pretty clear route. Transexualism clearly doesn't.

    It's also not like severe OCD, or similar disorders. Diagnosed transexuals are able to function in society.

    So the only types of mental disorder that transexualism could be are:

    1) Something like depression, that requires a certain level of treatment (like medication, or gender reassignment) to allow people with it to happily function, or

    2) Something like fetishism, or the old classification of homosexuality, that doesn't impede peoples functioning at all, and is there simply to provide a category

    So, do transexuals need gender reassignment, or should we just leave them alone?

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  8. Transition also leads to death, whats your point KK?

    dirt

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  9. Now you're contradicting yourself. Is it the transexualism or the transitioning that's the problem?

    If you're worried about transexualism as a mental disorder, then what should be done about it, if not transitioning?

    If you're worried about transitioning (and presumably all transitioning, rather than backstreet surgery: completely agree that's a problem), then you'd have to provide some evidence that there's an inherent problem with that process.

    And my point is that I'm interested in your thinking. I think you're deliberately ignoring some critical contradictions in your own viewpoint, but I wouldn't want to make that judgement without engaging you in a discussion first.

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  10. I contradict nothing, mental disorders clearly are best being treated where they lie. It makes absolutely no sense to mutilate a healthy body in order to cure a fractured mind. As Plath said "the vase RECONSTRUCTED/houses the elusive rose".

    dirt

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  11. So, "curative" therapy, rather than transitioning, for anyone diagnosed with transexualism? Perhaps some sort of variety of conversion therapy?

    @Mouse: This is why Trans people find a common ground with LGBs. Within living memory, homosexuality was classed as a mental disorder, and people were attempting to "cure" it. What Dirt, and various other social conservatives, advocate is taking the same approach to transexualism. My take would be that if electroshock therapy to "cure" an LGB person is abhorrent, then electroshock therapy to "cure" a Trans person is just as abhorrent.

    And this is the contradiction in Dirt's position. The arguments she uses to present transexualism as something that needs curing are just the same as used by those who want to cure homosexuality. If she's right, then Fred Phelps is right.

    And if Fred Phelps is wrong, then Dirt is wrong.

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  12. Lets get this straightned out, many T and I people i know also DONT want to be "lumped" in with the LGB, so mouse dont worry your not the only one feeling insulted as a T/I person who ID's as hetrosexual, im ashamed to even go to an LGB service as i dont want to be known/affiliated as that..
    :D

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  13. Can we see the original post that sparked this thread? We would have more context.

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  14. Then the question is, what causes one self hating female to work through her negative female feelings and another to plunge into the ocean of female self hatred?
    ---------
    Two factors: Loving women, and exposure to the concepts and history of Women's Liberation.

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  15. @Ken Kills February 22, 2011 6:35 PM
    "So, "curative" therapy, rather than transitioning, for anyone diagnosed with transexualism? Perhaps some sort of variety of conversion therapy?

    @Mouse: This is why Trans people find a common ground with LGBs. Within living memory, homosexuality was classed as a mental disorder, and people were attempting to "cure" it. What Dirt, and various other social conservatives, advocate is taking the same approach to transexualism. My take would be that if electroshock therapy to "cure" an LGB person is abhorrent, then electroshock therapy to "cure" a Trans person is just as abhorrent.

    And this is the contradiction in Dirt's position. The arguments she uses to present transexualism as something that needs curing are just the same as used by those who want to cure homosexuality. If she's right, then Fred Phelps is right.

    And if Fred Phelps is wrong, then Dirt is wrong."



    Again, another erroneous comparison to homosexuality.

    "Transexualism" is an extreme reaction to sex role stereotyping.
    The reaction is so extreme that those who suffer from it want to change their bodies and take "T" in order to make their bodies conform to societal norms and their perception of what a man or women should be.
    Homosexuals on the other hand, just are. They don't have to change their bodies to be who they are.

    There are people who feel that their authentic self is disabled. They have BIID. They feel they should be disabled. Do you feel that we should allow them to cut their limbs off to "cure" their body dysphoria. If you answer no, can you explain why we should allow transexuals to change their bodies?

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  16. I'm agreeing with Ken Kills and I think he's got you, Dirt, logically.

    Transitioning leads to death? Do mean spiritually or physically? Doesn't all life lead to death?

    I could appreciate your fear-tactic assertions if you were merely trying to get people to stop transitioning. Presumably you'd be more comfortable in the world if you had more butch women, or gender non-conforming females around you. However, you simply cannot know that trans people, before or after transition, are inherently blocked from this wonderful process of living and loving ourselves. I never thought transition would cure all my problems. I've had to do the other work as a human as well. I still would have transitioned regardless.

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  17. "Then the question is, what causes one self hating female to work through her negative female feelings and another to plunge into the ocean of female self hatred?"

    Actually feeling like the concept of being a woman has meaning for you or not?

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  18. Female transitioners seek to murder the female self by brutalizing that self with mind/body altering unsound drugs/surgeries, because the male medical machine is willing to provide the tools necessary, doesnt make it any less brutal or corrective or curative.

    dirt

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  19. @K,

    Lesbians are born lesbian, reiterating Canadian, we do not require synthetic drugs or mutilative surgeries along with selling the mass delusion to all we know and will know in future that we are lesbians.

    dirt

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  20. What *exactly* is a female self? Is it different than a *self* self? Is there a dividing line between my female self and a non-gendered self? How do I determine that I have a female self and not a male self or just a regular self? If I found this elusive female self, is there any reason, given I take care of this transitioned body and monitor my health, that I cannot walk around with this female self inside this "male" body?

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  21. anon@7:32- your body will always be female no matter what you put it through

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  22. @Canadian:

    Thanks for a smart response.

    Given how under-researched BIID is, I wouldn't want to completely make up my mind today.

    But, based on the evidence available today, I'd say that those suffering BIID should go through an appropriate level of therapy to determine what they're feeling (and if it can be simply helped by some other form of therapy), and then, if there's good reason to think that amputation will help to improve their overall quality of life, then we should.

    So I'll turn it round. Imagine that I suffer from BIID, feeling that having a left arm below the elbow is "wrong", and I want it to be amputated. I'm clinically depressed about this, and I've been seriously self-harming in that part of my body. All the talking therapy, etc, that I've been through to "cure" me hasn't worked, and all the therapists believe that my having an amputation would stop me feeling this bad.

    The only things left are electroshock therapy or to have my left arm below the elbow amputated. What should I do?

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  23. "Lesbians are born lesbian, reiterating Canadian"

    Where is the verifiable proof?

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  24. "your body will always be female no matter what you put it through"

    Okay, let's say I accept that for the sake of argument. Where is my female "self"? Can you find it and point it out to me?

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  25. @Dirt

    Re: "murdering the female self". Please decide if you want to have a concrete discussion, or to simply spout aphorisms. Defending the "female self" is also the goal of the rightwingers who believe in homosexuality corrupting their children.

    If lesbians are born lesbians (a pretty controversial point, but I'll give it to you for the sake of argument), then you're assuming something inherent in lesbian women that makes them a lesbian.

    Wonderful: so, if there's something inherent in Trans people that makes them Trans people, you'd be just as happy to accept that?

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  26. "Lesbians are born lesbian"

    Then WHY, in god's name, do you have such high rates of attrition from the lesbian id? I've seen so many "lesbian" transition or get married to men later in life. It makes me think it's just a word....

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  27. Hmm seems someone is blind to compulsive heterosexuality and queer politics.

    dirt

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  28. K,

    Wrong, reread previous comments by both myself and Canadian.

    dirt

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  29. @Ken Kills February 22, 2011 7:43 PM



    "But, based on the evidence available today, I'd say that those suffering BIID should go through an appropriate level of therapy to determine what they're feeling (and if it can be simply helped by some other form of therapy), and then, if there's good reason to think that amputation will help to improve their overall quality of life, then we should."

    Now this is the height of abstraction. Ask someone who has had limbs amputated about their quality of life and get back to me.
    Nice way to duck the issue though.

    There is a point where society as a whole must draw a line in terms of what we allow/or indulge people in their fantasies. That is when that fantasy becomes harmful to themselves or others.

    If people suffer dysphoria in any form, it needs to be dealt with by all means except allowing people to mutilate their bodies. We intervene when people complusively cut themselves, so why should we not intervene when people want to alter their bodies in a fundemental way.

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  30. "My take would be that if electroshock therapy to "cure" an LGB person is abhorrent, then electroshock therapy to "cure" a Trans person is just as abhorrent."

    Isn't the whole 'transitioning' process a 'cure' for a mental disorder?

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  31. "Hmm seems someone is blind to compulsive heterosexuality and queer politics."

    This seems to deny women any agency in choosing their partners or deciding who they love. Are you saying that "lesbians" love women because of desire and women who love women and later decide they love and desire a man do so completely without any true sense of what they want? This is entirely too neat. People change, desire changes. You would portray women as victims only, and I reject that assertion.

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  32. @7:54 it's obviously in your pussy, as evidenced when you wipe it

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  33. Anon@9:41,

    How queer of you.

    dirt

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  34. i just saw a commercial for a show on tonight on oprah winfrey's new station about transexuals
    included are a 'transman' and a little boy with parents who indulge him by calling him a girl
    wonder if y'all will watch
    (i can't, it riles me up too much
    just like this blog!
    (well, the pro-trans comments anyway))

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  35. "@7:54 it's obviously in your pussy, as evidenced when you wipe it"

    Ha! Thank you. I'm gonna look for it next time I pee.

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  36. "How queer of you."

    Is that supposed to be an insult?

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  37. "If people suffer dysphoria in any form, it needs to be dealt with by all means except allowing people to mutilate their bodies. We intervene when people complusively cut themselves, so why should we not intervene when people want to alter their bodies in a fundemental way."

    Right. And then we should stop letting gay people adopt children, because that's not a natural family. And we should not let lesbians inseminate, because there is nothing natural about that process. Then we should re-educate gays about what kind of sex their bodies were really intended for, and what kinds of families have existed on earth for thousands of years.

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  38. I a gay woman hope that you a Ignorant "lesbian" burns in hell along with all of the other close minded straight people that not only hate YOU because you are gay but hate everybody else in the lgbT community. WE the lgbT communtiy are supposed to be united and stand up against bashing, and discrimination, but YOU just add to the hate and problems that the LgbT communtiy has worked so hard to overcome. and YOU are just ignorant. incase you forgot..
    L-Lesbian
    G-Gay
    B-Bisexual
    T-TRANSGENDER. I hope that you come to terms with what ever issue that you have with transgenders and realize that they are mentally BORN men if FTM or mentally born WOMEN if MTF. They dont not hate the biological sex that they were born, usually they LOVE the biological sex.

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  39. @anon February 22, 2011 10:41 PM


    "Right. And then we should stop letting gay people adopt children, because that's not a natural family. And we should not let lesbians inseminate, because there is nothing natural about that process. Then we should re-educate gays about what kind of sex their bodies were really intended for, and what kinds of families have existed on earth for thousands of years."

    To start with:
    This is about people altering their bodies in a fundemntal way.
    Nowhere in my post do I even remotely insinute that people should not artificially inseminate themselves or not adopt children.
    These processes do not involve amputating ones healthy limbs or altering ones body to present as a different sex and sexual practices involve behavior not wholesale physical changes. How do you make the connection between what I said and the things you cite in your post?

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  40. Gee, Hailey, you're a perfect example of the intelligence of the LGBT community. ('mentally born men?' Are you a teenager or something?)
    I'm out of here!

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  41. "How do you make the connection between what I said and the things you cite in your post?"

    The connection is that you believe "we" (the government? ) should control what other people are doing with their own bodies. Are you also anti-abortion then? It seems to me that removing an unwanted pregnancy
    has alot more consequences for more people. I mean, my boobs didn't even stand a chance of living on their own and growing up to be whole humans.


    Allowing gay people to inseminate affects a whole different PERSON! An unborn child who could potentially grow up to reject her parents way of life as being immoral and sick! And she has no choice in that matter!

    You see my point? I really don't think you want to go down this road of controlling other people lest it affect you someday. As it happens, most transpeople go on to lead happy and healthy lives after transition, and that is a fine reason in and of itself to "let" us do it. (Jeez, thank god you are not in charge of anything!).

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  42. " realize that they are mentally BORN men if FTM or mentally born WOMEN if MTF. "

    mentally born men and mentally born women- what does that mean? are you implying that males and females have different mentality? well obviously yes you are. So what is the difference in cognition of those born men and women? How does the mentality of men and women differ?

    Since you would like people who don't believe in sex differentiated "mentality" to burn in hell (which indicates a very strong argument), please outline the difference between male and female mentality. thx.

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  43. @Anon

    ""How do you make the connection between what I said and the things you cite in your post?"

    The connection is that you believe "we" (the government? ) should control what other people are doing with their own bodies. Are you also anti-abortion then? It seems to me that removing an unwanted pregnancy
    has alot more consequences for more people. I mean, my boobs didn't even stand a chance of living on their own and growing up to be whole humans.


    Allowing gay people to inseminate affects a whole different PERSON! An unborn child who could potentially grow up to reject her parents way of life as being immoral and sick! And she has no choice in that matter!

    You see my point? I really don't think you want to go down this road of controlling other people lest it affect you someday. As it happens, most transpeople go on to lead happy and healthy lives after transition, and that is a fine reason in and of itself to "let" us do it. (Jeez, thank god you are not in charge of anything!)."

    Do you understand the concept of SELF harm? Do you understand why we don't let people cut themselves obsessively. Do you understand why we don't let anorexics starve themselves. Do you understand why we intervene when someone attempts to kill themselves? If you understand why we intervene in the above situations, you can surely undertsand my arguement. According to what you stated above, we should let people "control their own bodies", presumably so they can harm themselves as I have outlined.

    The central question is what do we do in the case of body dysphobia. You seem to feel it is acceptable to allow people to cut off and reshape their otherwise healthy bodies based on their own distorted perceptions. I and many others on this blog have deep reservations about this approach.

    The example of abortion is a classic red herring. The only analogy you could draw between transitioning and abortion is to have a woman who feels that she is pregnant, but actually is not. In order to satisfy some inner need she undergoes the procedure anyway.
    Your second example is so beyond anything resembling logic that I really can't do anything with it.

    The government controls and regulates many aspects of our lives. They regulate who can practice medicine, how food is manufactured among a host of other things to protect the public. Are you suggesting that such regulation is bad?

    I have posted on many blogs on a wide range of topics. Never, have I seen such wide gaps on logic and reasoning as I have seen with most pro transitioning arguements. It seems that pro transitioners cannot even concede that what they advocate, might have any downside and they attempt to silence those who even dare question their logic or should that be their theology.

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  44. Maybe this is the occasion I can use my straight privilege for something good ;P.

    In response to Ken Kills and other anons,

    Transsexuality is the belief you have a sexed self in an opposite sexed body, and usually that the best cure for that is physical "transition". The belief in a sexed self is false and leading to sexism, "transition" is a masking word for body mutilation. I don't see the comparison between Dirt and Phelps as legit at all; it is transsexuals who usually are wayyy more conservative anyway, believing themselves to be men/woman because they played with trucks/dolls as children (not everyone is like this, but using comments as evidence, a large part is),believing body hate is neurological and basis for an identity, and believing injecting synthetic hormones is just the same as a natural puberty. "Transitioning" is not a sex change at all, it's just a masking word for an incredibly conservative, sexist and dangerous concept.

    The comparisons between transsexuals and homosexuals ARE totally wrong. Wheter homosexuality is a choice or not (I don't think sexuality is a choice or that malleable, but it really doesn't matter), homosexual people, both gay men and lesbians, don't need body mutilation to live, don't need to harm themselves, in fact there's nothing wrong with homosexuality unless you have some pretty rooted religious dogma in your mind. If homosexuality is a choice, it is a totally legit choice.

    On "female" selves: way to trannify the concept folks. There's no real mental "female" self, but there is you know a PHYSICAL female self, and that is what transition mutilates. The belief you have to mutilate your female parts just to be human is VERY VERY TELLING.

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  45. "As it happens, most transpeople go on to lead happy and healthy lives after transition, and that is a fine reason in and of itself to "let" us do it. (Jeez, thank god you are not in charge of anything!)."

    From my experience, most happy transpeople were happy IN SPITE OF their transition, and you could count them on one hand...Pretense of happiness is different from happiness, and starting euphoria is totally different from happiness as well (transitioners are very bipolar usually). And I'm not in charge of other people's actions on their bodies, but I also believe no one in their right mind is masochistic. I believe in destroying propaganda, which is what basically all trans info clouding judgment is.

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  46. "It seems that pro transitioners cannot even concede that what they advocate, might have any downside and they attempt to silence those who even dare question their logic or should that be their theology."

    It's more that I just don't believe you can have a valid opinion on the matter coming from an outside perspective. People who are not trans have an instinctual reaction to the prospect of hormones and surgery. I think it comes from the hippies, really. "Why can't you just be who you are?" is a common reaction. I can admit that surgery seems like mutilation to someone who likes their breasts, but I don't experience it that way. People whose bodies are well-enough in line with their image of themselves are not prone to understanding this. The whole trans thing reeks of self-hate to people who don't get it. Especially if your source for ftm info is a 15 year old on YouTube. Media images of transsexuals are distorted, pathetic and without dignity. This, I don't trust. Probably because of my feminist background, I'm gonna immediately question negative portrayals by others of any marginalized people's lives. Just as surely as I know that my lesbian friends are not tragic, sad, man-hating, bitter, or are only dykes because they have been hurt by men, I know that ftm's are mistrusted from square one and I resent that. As I should. Is there any good reason why I should justify my transition to another human? Does my body belong to you, the state, the community at large, or me?
    It may be that we need a paradigm shift re: images of transness, what it means to be trans, and options for not transitioning.

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  47. "transitioners are very bipolar usually"

    Sigh. NOW what are you talking about Bluetraveler? I don't want to hurt your feelings again, but your false scientific bullshit is not even worth responding to.

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  48. @Canadian

    Not ducking the issue at all. And I'm not sure how the before & after QoL of someone who needs amputation is relevent. Surely BIID's simple enough to look at directly, without false comparisons.

    Now stop ducking my question. Amputatiob or electroshock?

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  49. @Dirt

    I've read your comments, just finding them massively problematic.

    So, you say Trans people have a mental disorder, & advocate "curing" them wharever it takes. In comparison, you say lesbians are born.

    Using the same arguments as yourself, some rightwinger can say: lesbians have a mental disorder, it's not natural that they don't like cock, they were made this way by society, so we have to cure them

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  50. " I can admit that surgery seems like mutilation to someone who likes their breasts, but I don't experience it that way. People whose bodies are well-enough in line with their image of themselves are not prone to understanding this. "

    I had MASSIVE PROBLEMS with my female body before you know. I hated my breasts ever since they appeared, I hated my thighs, I hated my periods. I HATED EVERYTHING! And why? Because female are sub-human cock servants, according to society.

    "Using the same arguments as yourself, some rightwinger can say: lesbians have a mental disorder, it's not natural that they don't like cock, they were made this way by society, so we have to cure them"

    Except that this is only valid under a conservative, non-logical heterocompulsive perspective. KK, if this is just a logic game you play for kicks, stop playing.

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  51. I really liked the term "enlightened Butch" and I think it hits the nail on the head.
    Ken Kills - Can you tell me what it takes for someone to be considered "trans?"

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  52. "Now stop ducking my question. Amputatiob or electroshock?"

    Well, if electroshock didn't make permanent damage and resolved my condition without body amputation, sure. To be freed of transsexuality, however, electroshock is not necessary, an emotional blow AKA looking at the truth directly might however. Stop spreading false comparisons Ken.

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  53. " "transitioners are very bipolar usually"

    Sigh. NOW what are you talking about Bluetraveler? I don't want to hurt your feelings again, but your false scientific bullshit is not even worth responding to."

    Stop with patronizing me Hexy, and yes, transitioning does cause bipolar feelings especially in FTMs. Testosterone highs, and lows, passing or not passing, etc.

    http://naturalbutch.blogspot.com/

    It's not that transpeople are inherently bipolar, but the conditions required for their self-defined happiness lead to bipolar behaviour, especially in FTMs. Extreme happiness and extreme depression.

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  54. @Bluetraveller

    I completely agree that that's only valid under a bullshit conservative viewpoint.

    It's just that you're points are also only valid under a bullshit conservative viewpoint: the same kind of "this thing is natural, that thing's a perversion" view as the rightwingers.

    And of course this is logical. But it's not a game.

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  55. Quoting from the Natural Butch blog, which is excellent (directed mainly at butch lesbians but I'm sure all transitioners can see the points):

    "Over the last 50 years, then, people who used to be understood as “butch lesbians” now are said to have “gender dysphoria” (and other newly emerging gender “diagnoses”).

    So, while it used to be said that:
    Butch Lesbians simply need the same cultural context, tribal fellowship, and elder mentoring that all minority individuals require to function with any health in a majority-culture that rejects or devalues them.
    The degree to which they fail to have those things is the degree to which they (like all minority people) suffer depression, rage, self-hate, alcoholism, drug use, suicide, and more.
    The real gender problem here is the greater culture’s rejection of nature and diversity — and it’s from outside of and imposed upon the butch lesbian (again, just as it is for all minority people).
    Now it’s said that:
    “Gender Dysphorics” need psychotherapy, testosterone, antidepressants, mood-balancers, plastic surgery, and more to become who they really are – and they need psychologically-oriented support groups of other “gender dysphorics” who are also getting psychotherapy, testosterone, antidepressants, mood-balances, plastic surgery, and more to support them.
    The degree to which they fail to have these things is the degree to which they (like all psychiatrically-challenged people) suffer depression, rage, self-hate, alcoholism, drug use, suicide, and more.
    The gender problem here is within and part of the gender dysphoric individual — it’s a brain and body dysfunction that creates a psychiatric disability.
    Along with this, we’ve witnessed the birth of a whole new medical, psychiatric, and psychological industry: one that “researches”, “treats” and “manages care” for people who’ve been assigned to gender entries in the diagnostic manual for psychiatry. It’s as if a new field of medicine had skyrocketed into existence to do skin-lightening, plastic surgery, psychotherapy, and anti-depressant/mood-leveling drug prescriptions for depressed, angry, and alienated African-Americans who’ve been diagnosed with “racial dysphoria” — and we’re supposed to believe this is “progress”.

    Still, in all of this:

    …who would really care if so many gender-minority people weren’t being hurt, exploited, confused, and/or left even more self-hating and alienated by all this new “help”?

    …who would really care if it weren’t actually costing us our healthy minds, healthy bodies, and healthy spirits (sometimes permanently)?

    …who would really care if this were more about helping the suffering, rather than pocketing the suffering’s insurance pay-out, or advancing professional careers, or controlling cultural nonconformity?

    …who would really care if all of those submitting to the medical / psychiatric model were actually getting out of it what they were (directly or indirectly) promised, and really ended up happier and healthier, in the end?

    I believe strongly that people should be allowed to do whatever they wish with their minds, bodies, and spirits — including making them grossly unhealthy, unhappy, and dysfunctional, if they choose to do so with full understanding of what they’re doing.

    But that’s the problem, right there."

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  56. "It's just that you're points are also only valid under a bullshit conservative viewpoint: the same kind of "this thing is natural, that thing's a perversion" view as the rightwingers."

    so because I'm saying body mutilation is wrong, I'm on the same side as Phelps?

    GROW UP KEN, AND STOP PLAYING GAMES. THIS IS REAL, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE MUTILATING THEMSELVES RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.

    Go defend liberalism elsewhere. I'm 100% in favor of choice but also 100% in DISfavor of mutilation and needless pain.

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  57. Ken, you will probably LOOOOOVE transhumanism, right? I did too, and it almost costed me my life and sanity. Thankfully, there is a cure:

    the little GBA video game Mother 3.

    Which is a great piece of literature, don't be fooled by the appearances. Much better than anything Jane Austen wrote, for example (and still, I am ridiculed if I dare to compare them. Poor Itoi)

    ReplyDelete
  58. So yeah Ken, explain why my points are valid only under a bullshit conservative viewpoint. I'm eager to know.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @Bluetraveler

    And their used to be massive correlation between homosexuality and mental health issues. I'n sure plenty of people thought homosexuality caused mental illness, too.

    I agree with your comments about electroshock, just like I agree that transitioning shouldn't be the first thing tried. But I do think that, at the very least, changing the body with surgery would be better than changing the mind with electroshock or similar.

    Once you accept that there is a "line" where transitioning's the best thing for the person, the argument becomes where you place that line.

    If you think doctors are too quick to allow transitioning, I see where you're coming from, and even have a some sympathy for the point. But if you think it's never, ever appropriate, then I struggle to see how this isn't just hate.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Ken Kills, I don't think body mutilation can ever be the right thing, though people can choose (and I never, ever advocated for loss of choice).

    But fair choice implies fair information as well, for without fair info, there can be no really fair choice, and I believe this is what this blog stands for: fair info on the "other side".

    Sure, society is shit, it discriminates all women and all those who transgress fictional "gender" norms. It instills hatred towards our "faulty" (wheter because they are too male or too female) bodies.
    Giving up to societal pressure IS NOT THE ANSWER. Mutilating and injecting drugs to yourself is not the answer, but you are still free to do so.
    And again, homosexuality and transsexuality can't be compared, as years of queer theory said. To be homosexual is not the same, or comparable, as being trans, for no body mod is required. Right-wing ideas are just that, bullshit.

    I don't see how saying mutilation is wrong (and no, I never denied choice) is hate instead of caring, as an ex-FTM, whose transition was stopped by my loving family, I really don't see how.

    ReplyDelete
  61. *and changing the body with surgery doesn't really heal the mind, because "transition" is not really a sex change. It's a coping, not winning, strategy at best.

    ReplyDelete
  62. @Bluetraveller

    No, you're not on the same side as Phelps. You're just both wrong for similar reasons.

    Ok, if you can't get past your view that transitioning is "mutilation", what about transvestitism? Someone born a woman wants to, with no surgery, live her entire life as a man. She lives her life as much like a man as possible without surgery. The furthest she goes is to bind her breasts. And she's happy, feeling that this is all the transitioning she needs.

    Is this good, or should she still have been "cured"?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Ken, as long as she doesn't call herself a man but a female, and possibly without binding (because it causes several problems, to chest, ribs, lungs, heart), I'm all for it. It's important to destroy all gender boxes, and this is what butch lesbians, who "live as a man" (well, there's no such thing as living as a man or as a woman, only being a man, woman, or intersex), are doing.

    And transitioning IS mutilation, I believe I argued that long enough but you can see the pics I posted actually.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I myself have always lived pretty "genderneutrally". Does this mean I should call myself "zie" and expect to be considered intersex? Biology accepts no bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  65. @Bluetraveller

    So you'd have a problem with her calling herself a man? I can see why you'd disagree with surgery, even if I don't share your opinions, but what's the problem with her calling herself a man?

    ReplyDelete
  66. Uhm, she's a woman (vagina, ovaries, etc.), thus lying to herself, others, and contributing to female invisibility in certain sectors (like mine, physics, or mechanics, etc.) and in certain walks of life, and perpetuating the myth that women/men can become men/women?

    See beyond your liberal "black is white" hole, to the large repercussions of that act...

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous said...
    anon@7:32- your body will always be female no matter what you put it through

    February 22, 2011 7:41 PM


    drepufs said...
    @7:54 it's obviously in your pussy, as evidenced when you wipe it

    February 22, 2011 9:46 PM



    And these exact comments are why trans people SHOULD have access to those LESBIAN services....

    Dirt just because u have your 'unhealthy' breasts removed DOESNT make it right for YOU to judge other female bodied individuals.. for you to access a LESBIAN service u need to grow some WOMEN tits

    ReplyDelete
  68. @Bluetraveller

    So the crux of your argument rests on their being some sort of essential "femaleness" that's defined by science.

    Fair enough.

    I disagree with you on theoretical grounds (fluidity of gender, can't ground everything in science, etc) and practical grounds (if science can prove that homosexuality is socially determined, your argument would mean that homosexuality should be "cured" too), but at least I see where you're coming from.

    I think it would be nice if you consider the possibility that femaleness isn't biologically determined, though. As far as I've seen, the science on this is still pretty divided.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anon, Dirt has breasts. Just because you can't see them it doesn't mean she doesn't have them. Not flaunting something is different than not having something. You know that breasts actually drop with age, and that they don't stay perky forever for instance? So not visible or droopy breasts are not really breasts? Wow.

    Personally I'm in favor of FTMs having access to women-only services, because they are women, wheter they deny it or not. Any bragging of male status is fictional.

    ReplyDelete
  70. No Ken, I don't believe in any essential femaleness. I don't feel female (or male), I am because I have a vagina and ovaries and etc. My female biological status doesn't impede me from anything, including seeing bullshit when it's presented to me, and false arguments and dichotomies as well.


    I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN BODY MUTILATION!

    "I think it would be nice if you consider the possibility that femaleness isn't biologically determined, though. As far as I've seen, the science on this is still pretty divided."

    And it would be determined by...? Sure, some brains lean towards a "female" pattern, some others toward a "male" pattern, but that's statistics. Feeling like either is an impossibility whatever brain you have. Don't confuse dominance/submission or not understanding women/men with "gender". Gender is void.

    ReplyDelete
  71. "fluidity of gender"

    Of course gender is fluid, it doesn't exist. And of course sex is non-dichotomous, look at intersex people, who exist. I have male body hair patterns! That's admittedly the only really male thing I have.


    "if science can prove that homosexuality is socially determined, your argument would mean that homosexuality should be "cured" too)"

    I don't see why that should happen in a species that is often, if not almost exclusively nowadays, HOMOSOCIAL? Sex is not merely reproductive (and engaging in PiV sex when not aiming for conception is dangerous, pregnancy risk, plus a load of other stuff you know).

    ReplyDelete
  72. And to repeat it once and for all, the crux of my argument (and many other people's as well, I believe) is that "transition" (AKA mutilation) is wrong because it's mutilative, no matter the starting body (male, female, intersex).

    NO MENTION OF ANY SEX ESSENCE WHATSOEVER (I don't believe in it), no relation whatsoever to any kind of sexuality.

    ReplyDelete
  73. i can say from experience with having read your blog that the "saturation" you're talking about in reference to people calling you trans in denial is completely unfounded. i've maybe once seen a comment that said that. as for the butch/ftm experiences being different; i'm not sure what the original comment actually said because, as any good spindoctor, you haven't let us see the real post (again) but i can tell you from experience, my transition has not lead me to female hatred, it's has lead and continues to lead me toward self love, acceptance, comfort, elimination of unnecessary anxiety, and a resolution of certain elements of dysphoria. i'm not going to try to tell you what is/would be right in your experience of being butch. being butch is in no way the same as being trans. before coming out as transgendered, i was in no way what one would consider butch. i had long hair, wore tight fitting clothes, shaved my legs and under arms, and was generally girly, but i was uncomfortable--in EVERY aspect of my life, from the words used to hail me to the way people greeted me and the way they LOOKED at me, all of it was wrong.
    the butch/femme dynamic is a beautiful thing, but holding it as the only model of lesbian relationship dynamics is seriously antiquated. just because something changes does not mean it is injured in some way. the lesbian community has changed and is changing, and just because it is new and does not look like the home you once found does not mean that it is necessarily bad or wrong or that it isn't the right home for some other lesbian to find. experience is generational; maybe Bob said it best, "please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand, 'cause the times they are a'changing."

    ReplyDelete
  74. @Bluetraveller

    My apologies, I didn't realise quite how reductionist your take on science was. I disagree, but I don't want to turn the thread into a debate on whether science currentrly explains everything.

    But a similar point holds on your views on mutilation. What's your view on laser eye surgery?

    @Parker

    Completely agree with your point. Very well put

    ReplyDelete
  75. BlueT,

    I appreciate you defending my breast...lol Although I am not sure why my tits would be of such interest to the trans community...lol

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  76. Parker,

    Which is why I say and weekly show, it is very rare for Butch lesbians to trannify.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  77. "But a similar point holds on your views on mutilation. What's your view on laser eye surgery?"

    The comparison is totally unfounded. Laser eye surgery restores or betters the eye's vision. Transition doesn't add any functionality besides the semblance of having the "right body" (false, it doesn't actually change your sex)...it's mutilation PRECISELY because it destroys functioning. No more reproductive potential (I don't care but others do), no more organic hormonal feedback, no more healthy lymphatic system drainage for those with mutilated breasts and often loss of sensitivity, no more functioning genitals for either FTMs or MTFs...


    Ok, a neo"vagina" has a unique new "function": being fucked! Which is what being female is, right?

    And before accusing me of being reductionist, before synthesizing something you must ANALYZE (separate, discern) things first, so that there's no bullshit in the midst. And if you don't believe femaleness is biological, well then, have a good stay among the Otherkin community. They are dragons inside...

    ReplyDelete
  78. Parker, I only feel blessed and honored if Dirt is tending her "old" female hand at us who suffered the pain of body dysphoria (wheter you realize or not)! Misogyny hasn't changed much with time, but the ways FAB people (females) deal with it have.
    (I don't hate transpeople, I hate scientism-based, male-based and Victorian-derived PSYCHIATRY!)

    ReplyDelete
  79. @parker and everyone
    it seems that most(?) ftm's DID try very hard to conform to the feminine ideal, uncomfortably (of course! it's not for everyone!) and that's where the problem stemmed from. it's a totally societally-based emotional disorder. and judging from many of the ones i see here (around the lgbt center in greenwich village) also tend to be very short and at one time large-breasted... naturally androgynous people seem less likely to transition, no?
    some kind of over-'correction' based on bullshit, from not being allowed to develop naturally in youth...

    ReplyDelete
  80. @Bluetraveller

    Laser eye surgery doesn't add functionality, it fixes something that's medically wrong. Just like transitioning.

    But, so we don't have to argue terms, how about getting tattoos or piercings? They don't add any functionality. Do you disagree with them?

    I didnt mean the reductionist comment to sound like an insult. Scientific reductionism is a great worldview. It would allow me to say that your Otherkin comment makes no sense: you cant have a dragon brain in a human body, as there's no such thing as dragons.

    Bur if there's any quantifiable difference between male and female brains, it lets me say that it's possible for there to be a male brain in a female body.

    So, do you really think there's no difference between male and female brains?

    ReplyDelete
  81. i think that there's tons of variation in male and female brains which doesn't make anybody more or less male or female

    ReplyDelete
  82. "So, do you really think there's no difference between male and female brains?"

    Ken, maybe not. If not, then I have a "male" brain, a brain which is STATISTICALLY more common in males than female (the, ahem, scientific brain).

    Do you think I really need injecting testosterone and a mastectomy now? Where do you make that jump? And when do you make the jump on brains, whatever brains, "feeling" male or female?

    ReplyDelete
  83. "Laser eye surgery doesn't add functionality, it fixes something that's medically wrong. Just like transitioning."

    If injecting hormones and mutilating healthy organs away solves anything, it sure doesn't make you change sex either. And you know what I think about "transitioning" solving anything...it doesn't. It, pardon me, "screws you" even further than the idea that you can "feel" male or female, because there's no going back on that. Your testicles or ovaries don't come back, and you are castrated forever.

    ReplyDelete
  84. @ eliz
    "naturally androgynous people seem less likely to transition, no?"

    well, i am 5'10, 138, very lean, very androgynous, and i still transitioned. i am much more comfortable playing with my natural femininity in a body that feels right to me. now femininity seems a natural suit to wear occasionally, as does masculinity. this body is my body and it thrills me; who are you, dirt, (or any of you, really) to tell me what i should or should not, can or cannot, do with MY body? i am sound of mind and incredibly bright, i know myself better than you do. honestly, i am curious to know from where you (dirt) divined permission to be the judgment bearer of the LGBTQ community (which exists despite your disapproval of it).

    ReplyDelete
  85. @Bluetraveller

    If you don't think there's any difference between male & female brains, how do you explain the difference between male & female personalities?

    So, it's not "mutilation" per se you have a problem with, it's only body modifications that change the genitals?

    OK, lets try again. A woman decides to get her labia pierced? Is this ok?

    ReplyDelete
  86. Ken, I said brain differences might be true. Reading comprehension = 0.

    The differences between abstract "male" and "female" personalities are probably the result of both nature and nurture. It still doesn't make a "feminine" male female or a "masculine" female male. They are just uncommon (in our society at least) ways of being.

    And a piercing in any part of the body is not really comparable to SRS! Stop spreading false comparisons. Surgical transition is more comparable to plastic surgery, no wait it IS plastic surgery - which I'm generally against.

    Expressing "femininity" as a FTM means nothing and takes nothing away from the argument. Many FTMs today are "feminine". They still hate their female body.

    ReplyDelete
  87. @KK and BlueT,

    As you have both seriously strayed off topic can you please take your convo elsewhere. As stated recently off topic comments will be deleted.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  88. I just find it very interesting that so many of you are so worried about what other people choose to do with THEIR bodies. WTF is it to you? If you aren't trans, then you can't truly KNOW trans, what it feels like, what transition does for you, the effects of it, etc. If you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes, don't attempt to broadcast some blanketed ideology about that experience. The whole mutilation argument is just fucking ridiculous anyway. Women get their HEALTHY breasts enlarged, reduced, etc. because they like the way their body looks. Are they victims of society too? Or are you just suggesting that a person can't have personal preference about the way their body looks - that it MUST be a matter of conforming? Regardless, what ever happened to live and let live? Why must you knock other people down to build yourselves up? This blog really comes off as a pathetic attempt to hide the author's fascination with, and sour grapes about transsexuality.

    ReplyDelete
  89. re: Women get their HEALTHY breasts enlarged, reduced, etc. because they like the way their body looks. Are they victims of society too?

    ABSOLUTELY
    (to a lesser extent)

    ReplyDelete
  90. Chris,

    Because as feminist women with a deep understanding of how the lack of feminism informs "choice", it is our duty as women who love and care about other women to speak out, dismantle ignorance and create positive changes for women.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  91. "Why must you knock other people down to build yourselves up?"

    Transpeople do EXACTLY this! Invading womens space, harassing people who are questioning their actions and so on.

    ReplyDelete
  92. "Women get their HEALTHY breasts enlarged, reduced, etc. because they like the way their body looks. Are they victims of society too"

    And I'm against that mod as well, it's just one side of the female coin - the other being transition.

    As for choice, you have it. No one took it away from you. You can still transition, that is, mutilate your body with external hormones and surgically cutting off or reshaping your organs. It's not my problem you are masochistic, though I feel pain for you.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Parker why did you like wearing girly clothes and shaving your legs before you transified?

    ReplyDelete
  94. "how do you explain the difference between male & female personalities?"

    Considering that females and males are treated like different species from the moment that they pop out of the womb, "brain sex" isn't exactly needed to explain this one.

    ReplyDelete
  95. parker didn't like her feminine trappings apparently
    but i guess doesn't blame her being forced into them for her transition?

    ReplyDelete
  96. Scans show difference in transgender brains:
    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/

    ReplyDelete
  97. were 'butch' women and 'effeminate' men included in these brain scan studies?

    ReplyDelete
  98. I would say that the biggest difference between the experiences of Butch women vs those of FTMs is a difference in how the person interprets their own experience. Two people could have the same experience, and one would say "This is because I am really a man" and the other would say "This is MY OWN way of being" or "This is a different experience of being a woman." One person might react by feeling the need to change themself, the other reacts by feeling a need to change their environment. One person who doesn't fit in will try harder to make themselves conform; the other person might seek a more compatible group. Where one might say "my body is wrong", the other might say "this is the body I have so I'll make the best of it, and besides, my body doesn't define me or what I can do".

    Most FTM's aren't any more "male" or "masculine" or "male brained" than I am. The big difference is they opt for drugs and surgery, and I don't. I don't think they are somehow fundamentally different from many of us who live in our natural bodies. It's definitely a choice they are making- there's nothing inevitable about it. I would think the FTMs must think their life is going to somehow get better as a result of transitioning (but does it actually?) And they must be willing to accept a surgery that doesn't even achieve a good approximation of actual maleness (in most cases, no penis)- but then women in our society often are willing to accept situations that are less than optimal, as we are raised to have lower expectations in general. Also they would need to feel that it wasn't a cop-out to assume a masculine appearance in order to be treated as male instead of confronting sexist oppression head-on. They might justify it by saying they would be a "feminist male" or some such rationalization.

    The FTMs I have known have been people who seemed to care more about what other people thought about them, how they are viewed by others. I think that is one of the main differences I've noticed. If you live as a Butch woman in this society, you get to the point where you are able to have a sense of self that is independent of the opinions of others. This has been my experience.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Donna, and those differences would mean?

    That you must mutilate yourself? I could have those vital differences myself for all I know.

    Grow up, be a man - not because a man is the pinnacle of human life, but just what you are (male is a less loaded term if you wish). And that doesn't imply anything else than simply being how you feel like, naturally. Wear all the lipstick you want, if you like it.

    ReplyDelete
  100. As for white matter distribution, it's a somewhat correlative and accepted fact many artists, even male, have "female" (STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, nothing is really female or male besides the obvious, female and male sexual organs! Would you say height is male?) white matter distribution. It should help with holistic understanding or something.

    DID PICASSO MUTILATE HIS PENIS? DID MICHELANGELO?

    Only that scam of Warhol might have thought about it, actually.

    ReplyDelete
  101. "parker didn't like her feminine trappings apparently
    but i guess doesn't blame her being forced into them for her transition?"

    No, no one made her wear girly clothes and shave her legs, that was her choice, it was what she preferred. I'm curious why she preferred these things.

    ReplyDelete
  102. I feel like two assumptions are being made in this discussion that aren't really fair.

    The first is that FTMs and butch lesbians who have experienced "negative female feelings" feel the same way. You have no idea how I feel as a trans guy because you're not a trans guy! Bluetraveler, thinking that you were FTM doesn't make you an expert on how trans guys think and feel, especially since you concluded that you weren't trans!

    The second is that we know everything about the brain. The brain is like the ocean or outer space. We know next to nothing about it! You can't conclude that there's no center of the brain that determines gender identity when we know so little about what there is.

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  103. No one is "trans" until the male medical machine gets hold of them. Before that, they are merely another self hating female.

    dirt

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  104. Of course no one is trans before they hear the label trans! What kind of proof is it that people haven't magically picked up the same word? People have, however, expressed the idea that they are not the opposite gender from the one that they were assigned at birth before encountering another trans person or being told that transgenderism exists.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Words do not make people trans, a sick male medical machine does.

    dirt

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  106. "Why must you knock other people down to build yourselves up?"

    "Transpeople do EXACTLY this! Invading womens space, harassing people who are questioning their actions and so on."

    More generalizations... I am transsexual and have NO desire to invade lesbian spaces, nor do I harass anyone for any reason... or is taking part in this conversation now considered harassment?

    ReplyDelete
  107. And yet Chris here you are invading a lesbian space.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  108. Well pardon me.... I didn't realize that you didn't want meaningful dialogue on this subject. I ran across your blog today and saw all the posts on both sides of the topic and added my voice. I didn't see a sign saying only lesbians were welcome... now I know. It's much easier to push your point of view when you don't want the other side's contribution I suppose.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Well Chris then you might wanna look before you leap. As you are a newbie, mutual discussion will be sought when the trans community opens is closed doors, until then this will remain a moderated/safe space for those interested in shedding light on the trans disorder and the insane manner in which the male medical machine is brutalizing those who succumb to the trans disorder.

    dirt

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  110. It may be a "lesbian space" but you bring us into it when you make it no longer just about lesbian issues. And it's not just criticism. You post pictures of trans guys on here and their YouTube urls, making them specific targets for harassment. You can't expect to just say and do stuff like this about us and have us stay silent about it. Especially since when we do happen to stay silent, you claim that it must be because we have no good arguments against us being disordered.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Also, about "words do not make people trans, a sick male medical machine does:" restating your original beliefs, but adding no new evidence to support them does not make for a good argument.

    ReplyDelete
  112. I know this may come as a shock Liam, but lesbians are aloud to discuss whatever we like in our spaces. We do not need "men" telling us what the fuck is acceptable lesbian topics.

    dirt

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  113. Liam, since St Mary's was converted to Bedlam in 1245 we have evidence of the misogyny behind the male medical machine in mental illness alone.

    dirt

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  114. Discuss us all you want, but it becomes another thing when you single us out and make us targets for harassment.

    ReplyDelete
  115. There is no harassment here Liam, perhaps in your mind, but not on this blog. Now I've wasted enough of my time with your derail, if your future comments arent on topic they will be removed.

    thank you

    dirt

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  116. Dirt you brests are as an important topic, as you make an ftm's chest goes both ways.

    makes me laugh how rediculas some of you beliefs are

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  117. What does trannify mean? This is a new one to me.

    Ha, I actually googled, because I thought is was possibly a word I missed in school.

    To no avail though, I still do not know what it means.

    However, I did find multiple times this blogs reference lol.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trannify

    It has not been defined yet, it was is feeling froggy...hint hint :D

    I do know Im going to gayify it up!

    ReplyDelete
  118. @Anon February 23, 2011 2:59 AM

    "It's more that I just don't believe you can have a valid opinion on the matter coming from an outside perspective. People who are not trans have an instinctual reaction to the prospect of hormones and surgery. I think it comes from the hippies, really. "Why can't you just be who you are?" is a common reaction. I can admit that surgery seems like mutilation to someone who likes their breasts, but I don't experience it that way. People whose bodies are well-enough in line with their image of themselves are not prone to understanding this. The whole trans thing reeks of self-hate to people who don't get it. Especially if your source for ftm info is a 15 year old on YouTube. Media images of transsexuals are distorted, pathetic and without dignity. This, I don't trust."

    You make an erroneous assumption that I have an "outside perspective" As someone who is "butch", somewhat masculine looking and sounding, I have questioned my gender because I was so at odds what society said a women should be.
    At the onset of puberty, I was extremely distressed at having breasts and having my period(which came on at 10 btw). It was a process for me to make peace what I was and what society told me I should be. I resolved to be myself and to hell with what society said. Being myself included understanding that I had breasts,looked kind of masculine and that that was okay. So, I understand the trans experience a lot more than you realize. Cutting off healthy tissue when there is nothing physically wrong is questionable at best and unethical at worst. You say you don't like your breasts. If you decide that you "don't like" your arm or that you want to starve yourself to death because "you don't like" your body, should we stand by and let you do that? The instinctual reaction you cite is the natural unease people feel when they see others engaging in self harm or extreme body modifications. In the case of anorexics, "outsiders" understand that the person is harming themselves and this insight is valid even though the "outsider" is not anorexic. In the same way, outsider should question the transitioner who insists that they need to alter their bodies without anything being physically wrong.



    "Is there any good reason why I should justify my transition to another human? Does my body belong to you, the state, the community at large, or me?
    It may be that we need a paradigm shift re: images of transness, what it means to be trans, and options for not transitioning."

    The reason you need to justify your transition is because in the face of a lack of evidence you maintain you have physical issue that requires transitioning(aka extreme body modification). You are also requesting that society accomodate you during this process with laws and medical treatments. It is not reasonable for society as a whole to allow such extreme modifications without some sort of scientific rationale. Until one is provided, transtioning needs to be questioned.

    ReplyDelete
  119. @Dirt February 23, 2011 10:56 PM

    All of this breast talk is making me lactate!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  120. How fascinating that every woman who is angry and bitter about transsexuals happens to be masculine and/or butch. Speaking of things that cannot possibly be a coincidence...

    ReplyDelete
  121. "If you live as a Butch woman in this society, you get to the point where you are able to have a sense of self that is independent of the opinions of others. "

    Yeah, and if you live as a transsexual in this society, you get to that same point. Do you think there is a ton of respect for transsexuals out there? Dignity, even? Media representation of transsexuals is what, unbiased? I appreciate this post from you,Canadian, because you shared so much of your personal experience.
    But I can't put myself in the same position, mentally, as someone who believes they need their arm cut off. That would never occur to me. I don't understand that kind of thinking at all, as I use my arms every day.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Oops, I conflated a post by Canadian and DM and I responded to both as if they were one. Regardless, I appreciate both of your thoughtful and introspective posts. For reals. I appreciate this discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Well, huns, thanks to you all, I have done alot of thinking and have accepted my female self. And the conversations on this blog have helped me to understand that no matter what, I was born female. I guess I can have that, and integrate that female with the person I am now. I wouldn't give up the knowledge I have gained from being seen as male in the world for anything.If nothing else, it has allowed me tons of compassion for those who are born male and connot help how they are seen by others. And I'm kinda glad I got chest surgery and transitioned years before I had this realization, because really, I don't want breasts. And I am very happy with my "male" appearance. Onward and upward!

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous said...
    How fascinating that every woman who is angry and bitter about transsexuals happens to be masculine and/or butch. Speaking of things that cannot possibly be a coincidence...
    ----------------------
    Any insight into why gender non-compliant people might take issue with transsexuality?

    ReplyDelete
  125. The only "masculine" people who comment here are either trans(men) or real men. And Butches and butch women arent "gender non compliant", we are feminine bodied females like any other female.

    Obviously someone has bought "das boot" on patriarchal gender norms.

    And if you were an avid reader you would know through previous polls, the majority of the lesbian commenters are middle of the road lesbians.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  126. Who the fuck let you out of the kitchen.

    ReplyDelete
  127. ""parker didn't like her feminine trappings apparently
    but i guess doesn't blame her being forced into them for her transition?"

    No, no one made her wear girly clothes and shave her legs, that was her choice, it was what she preferred. I'm curious why she preferred these things."

    actually, the true story goes like this: parker was a human being with dignity and confidence and a sense of self respect that takes deep offense at you not respecting the pronouns i CHOOSE to use. i use they/them/theirs pronouns, and i would like to politely not give a fuck if anyone "believes in them" or if anyone doesn't think i should be applying them to myself. well, i am. and as an adult with an uncompromised mind and the right to do as i please with and about myself, i have chosen both to transition and use alternative pronouns in my life. i am asking no one to agree with me here, i am not asking for support, and i an not asking to be welcomed into this or any "lesbian only" community; all i am asking is that i am treated with a fundamental human respect that should be present when dealing with people no matter your oppinion on the choices they make.
    there is no way any of you can know the complexity of the web of events that is my life, nor can any of you know what lead me to feeling like i want to transition or to the choice to do so, and by this logic, none of you can know if it was right for me. propaganda is great for ruthlessly and stupidly hammering a point out into space, but dialogue is what changes things.

    parker loved (and loves) their feminine trappings. i love my body, i love my vagina. and i'm a transman. and i also want to talk about the "male machine" you reference here all the time. i can't find the post, but i someone was saying FTM's can never approximate maleness because FTMs rarely if ever get a penis. how messed up is this thinking? very messed up. by this logic, one conflates the essence of "maleness" and what it means to be "male" with a body part. penises do not make people men. they sometimes indicate a male body, but sex does not equal gender.
    no one forced me to transition, i'm simply doing what feels right FOR ME. i would never ever recommend this path for someone if they were not positive it was the one they want to be on, and making this choice is no light matter, but at the core of this debate, i'd like to see human beings talking to and respecting other human beings.
    people make choices other people do not agree with every second of every day. this doesn't invalidate their humanity, it does not strip them of the inalienable right to being treated with respect by their peers. you are no better than me. i am no better than you. here, our choices don't matter. just respect PEOPLE and your hate will slowly start to dissipate, and the world will be infinitely more beautiful for it.

    "No, no one made her wear girly clothes and shave her legs, that was her choice, it was what she preferred. I'm curious why she preferred these things."

    No, no one made them wear girly clothes and shave their legs, that was their choice, and it was what they preferred. and it is still what they prefer. i love wearing jeggings. tight shirts? bring em on. give me a pair of skinny jeans and i am one happy boi. what i'm trying to show here is, my foundational character did not change. the things i like and liked, the gendered aspects of society with which i played did not change simply because of transition. transition is a personal choice not defined by what i wear on my person.

    best,
    parker

    ReplyDelete
  128. parker, you are one of those "femme FTMs" I suppose? That explains everything.

    "all i am asking is that i am treated with a fundamental human respect that should be present when dealing with people no matter your oppinion on the choices they make."

    It's precisely because I respect you and the wholeness of your body, which includes your sex, which can't be changed after birth, I call you "she". Doing otherwise would be supporting your self-mutilation.

    "here, our choices don't matter. just respect PEOPLE and your hate will slowly start to dissipate, and the world will be infinitely more beautiful for it."

    Haha, you fell for the ultimate pomo trick. Not all choices are equal. I can demonstrate that mathematically if you wish.

    "how messed up is this thinking? very messed up. by this logic, one conflates the essence of "maleness" and what it means to be "male" with a body part. penises do not make people men. they sometimes indicate a male body, but sex does not equal gender."

    I agree with the first part, and absolutely not with the second. Gender doesn't exist, I demonstrated it, it doesn't exist precisely because although there are differences there is no qualitative "jump" in sex. Sex is just, and simply, and only, a matter of body biology. Which is why I'm not essentialistic, but all transpeople are. At this point you are left as a female (mostly female-bodied) person who likes to look like a pretty male (mostly male-bodied person). Although you can mimic the appearance of the male sex through transition (cyborgifying), you can never change sex, and not because I'm transphobic, but because this is how reality works. And this is not due to any kind of essentialistic essence, but biology. You don't have a penis, you don't have testicles, you don't produce sperm, you didn't have a natural male T level. You are a sex cyborg, which is a definition I hope you don't find offensive. You are a cyborg because you rejected (or changed drastically) your birth body.

    "No, no one made them wear girly clothes and shave their legs, that was their choice, and it was what they preferred. and it is still what they prefer. i love wearing jeggings. tight shirts? bring em on. give me a pair of skinny jeans and i am one happy boi. what i'm trying to show here is, my foundational character did not change. the things i like and liked, the gendered aspects of society with which i played did not change simply because of transition. transition is a personal choice not defined by what i wear on my person."

    And yet, despite this, you did change yourself by changing your body. There's no mind/body split. And you said you liked using your vagina...now, always according to trans dogma, isn't it a contradiction if you call yourself FTM?

    PS: I'm not robbing you of choice, just informing you on some things that made you choose your choicy choice.

    ReplyDelete
  129. @Blue,

    As an essentialist myself, trans people are ANTI-essentialist. Were they essentialist, they wouldnt believe in transition or succumb to it.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  130. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

    For someone that is so happy being lesbian, you sure do obsess on what it is/isn't to be trans... and do a pretty poor job of disguising it all as you "educating" and saving the lesbians. Your obsession and venomous attitude towards the trans community reeks of jealousy.

    ReplyDelete
  131. HS,

    Just like all those crazy suffragettes were obsessed with the vote and those equally crazy feminist were obsessed women's equality, or all those black americans obsessed with dismantling racism in white america, CRRAZY!

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  132. http://dirtywhiteboi67.insanejournal.com/profile

    Here is where you claim that you are trans & yet you continue to spend so much energy hating us (yourself).

    Get over it already and move on.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anon@12:27,

    We've long since affirmed that was created by an ftm as a childish prank because she couldnt argue this blogs truths.

    If you are interested in my real IJ, it can be found here:http://dirtywhiteboi.insanejournal.com/profile

    Look before you leap.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  134. I am a simple man with a simple desire. Maybe one day, my wish will come true: I will go through transition and Bluetraveler will refer to me as a "cyborg". It makes me giddy just thinking about it. I think cyborgs are quite sexy. :)

    ReplyDelete
  135. Hun, if you have "transition" you arent a man, simple perhaps but thats another convo.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  136. "Just like all those crazy suffragettes were obsessed with the vote and those equally crazy feminist were obsessed women's equality, or all those black americans obsessed with dismantling racism in white america, CRRAZY!"

    The causes you listed above were VERY important because EVERYONE deserved and deserves equal rights and to be treated with respect and dignity. How exactly does that equate with your hatred towards the trans community? While I do realize that you claim that society - the male medical powers that be, specifically - are turning lesbians into transmen, that rationale just doesn't hold up. But you wouldn't know that because you are not trans. You can't understand it, you haven't lived it. It is society and antiquated laws that still oppress the lesbian community - not the trans community. My being trans has ZERO to do with any oppression society put on you as a lesbian woman, so your statement above is simply smoke and mirrors, like much of what you post.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Dirt, I thought essentialism was anti-biological or a-biological. I believe in biology, and in the biological maleness of a male body, which can't be changed. That's what I was referring to.

    Perspective Cyborg, I thought cyborgs were the coolest thing in the world. Now I think they are just sad.

    http://www.singlegoal.info/transhumanism/

    ReplyDelete
  138. "While I do realize that you claim that society - the male medical powers that be, specifically - are turning lesbians into transmen, that rationale just doesn't hold up."

    No, it does. If you can't see it yet, I'm working on a series of posts explaining this. But it just takes simple reasoning! And nothing Dirt did AFAIK was ever really hateful, which is why I support her though I don't always agree with her (but honestly, I very often do).

    ReplyDelete
  139. Posting people's photos, ridiculing them, belittling them, and then in turn, inviting her readers to do the same isn't hateful? Wow... what has this world come to... it's bullying, plain and simple.

    ReplyDelete
  140. "Now stop ducking my question. Amputatiob or electroshock?"

    Now stop trolling. No ethical psychiatrist would propose electroshock as a legitimate treatment for BIID. Nor would an ethical psychiatrist suggest that the two choices were amputation or electroshock.

    Your trolling tactics are only slightly more sophisticated than the "Hurr durr, you're a MAN" lines some of the other trolls here use. In other words, fail.

    ReplyDelete
  141. "Dirt, I thought essentialism was anti-biological or a-biological. I believe in biology, and in the biological maleness of a male body, which can't be changed. That's what I was referring to."

    This is my understanding as well. And that gender (as opposed to sex) is a culturally created system of behavioral rules designed to control and oppress females.

    ReplyDelete
  142. "Sigh. NOW what are you talking about Bluetraveler? I don't want to hurt your feelings again, but your false scientific bullshit is not even worth responding to."

    Lol why do you even waste your time reading god almighty's mathematical and scientifical bullshit. She acts like she is some fucking genius, but is as dumb as rocks. None of her invalid arguments make sense.

    ReplyDelete
  143. "I just find it very interesting that so many of you are so worried about what other people choose to do with THEIR bodies. WTF is it to you? If you aren't trans, then you can't truly KNOW trans, what it feels like, what transition does for you, the effects of it, etc. If you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes, don't attempt to broadcast some blanketed ideology about that experience. The whole mutilation argument is just fucking ridiculous anyway. Women get their HEALTHY breasts enlarged, reduced, etc. because they like the way their body looks. Are they victims of society too? Or are you just suggesting that a person can't have personal preference about the way their body looks - that it MUST be a matter of conforming? Regardless, what ever happened to live and let live? Why must you knock other people down to build yourselves up? This blog really comes off as a pathetic attempt to hide the author's fascination with, and sour grapes about transsexuality."

    The bitter souls on here will never answer your post fully, notice how they will nit and pick from you, to make you look bad. The dirt and her fanatics has her own gender issues, they torture her 24/7 instead of dealing with it, she needs to torture other people to feel good. What a sad soul.

    ReplyDelete
  144. "Dirt, I thought essentialism was anti-biological or a-biological. I believe in biology, and in the biological maleness of a male body, which can't be changed. That's what I was referring to."

    Fuck off with your sci fi bullshit, bet you will be the first person to complain about patriarchy trapping and confining women because of their biology, biology which doesn't mean anything according to you. Yet here you are a no 1 cheerleader of biology when it comes to transsexuals. You want to use the same biology theory against us that you yourself have refused to be trapped in.

    You and dirt just need to stop with mocking "the male medical machine", It has done a lot of good for you and your other "female body loving butches" rolleyes. "male medical machine" is helping women in child birth, contraceptive, and other women's health issues. Maybe if you and your cohorts stop leeching of the "male medical machine", we may start to listen and boycott the big bad wolf.

    ReplyDelete
  145. "Lol why do you even waste your time reading god almighty's mathematical and scientifical bullshit. She acts like she is some fucking genius, but is as dumb as rocks. None of her invalid arguments make sense."

    Well prove it instead of hating your projection reflected by me, don't just fingerpoint.


    "biology which doesn't mean anything according to you. "

    Way to be dumb or blind people. I'm not a genius, it's just you transpeople who cloud your understandings on purpose.

    And since I only want to publicize my hateful idiotic blog instead of coalizing with all people who support my same arguments, here I am shallowing presenting my propaganda: http://questioningtranssexuality.blogspot.com/2011/02/demolishing-cultspeak-sexy.html
    (Though more seriously I'm posting it because I believe using more correct words prevents further derailings, like all libertarian and funfem arguments)

    ReplyDelete
  146. "Way to be dumb or blind people. I'm not a genius, it's just you transpeople who cloud your understandings on purpose."

    TAMMY FAYE WATCH OUT!

    Really?


    I still want to know what trannify means! gosh!

    ReplyDelete
  147. BluesT, how have you proved that gender does not exist? I'd be interested to see that.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anon February 24, 2011 5:33

    "I just find it very interesting that so many of you are so worried about what other people choose to do with THEIR bodies. WTF is it to you? If you aren't trans, then you can't truly KNOW trans, what it feels like, what transition does for you, the effects of it, etc. If you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes, don't attempt to broadcast some blanketed ideology about that experience."

    One does not have to have experience with anorexia or BIID before they are able to comment on it or express reservations about it. What excempts trans people from that sort of questioning?
    It is not a matter of doing what you want especially when the case for a physical cause of your "condition" has not been made.
    Until then, expect to encounter scepticism
    And please, don't send that link about the "white matter" study. If you bother to read the extract, the studies contradictions are clear.
    Another aspect of this position is the apparent obliviousness of the trans community to the social implications of what they are doing. Their non reaction to the concerns that they are embracing and reinforcing stereotypes is quite telling. Why do they fail question the precept that they can only act or be in certain ways in male or female bodies. Why is that demarcation so rigid in their minds that they feel they need to transition? The stock response of "because I feel this way" does not cut it when one contemplates such a profound and radical change akin to cutting off ones arm. There has to be reasons for why, reasons that you should be able to articulate. This is especially true when you ask society to accomodate you in the form of legislation and social changes.

    Con'd in the next post

    ReplyDelete
  149. If you care to read anon I demonstrated it (again) on this same page...PEOPLE READ BEFORE TALKING (or typing)!

    ReplyDelete
  150. I wish I could undo my transition, but it's too late.

    ReplyDelete
  151. It's NEVER too late, anon! I made a detransition support group on facebook, btw. Friend me there if you are interested.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anybody who needs to "detransition" should be smacked. Way to jump the gun and make permanent changes before finding out who you are. EXACTLY why the hoops should remain in place and make it as arduous a process as it was 15 years ago when I transitioned.

    ReplyDelete
  153. It is too late once you have hair growing on your face, a male hairline (at least I'm not bald), deep voice, name and gender changed on documents, etc. Once you've done all that it doesn't matter what you want, people see you as a man now even if you're really a female. I'm not going to go to any more doctors to become what I already was in the first place. And to the ANON at 12:34 you can shut it, missy. You don't know me or what I have been through already.

    ReplyDelete
  154. It's never too late to detransition Anon @ 4:10
    Piny from Feministe wrote a whole series of articles about her detransition after being on T for three years, having facial hair etc:
    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/04/14/reunion/

    ReplyDelete
  155. "people see you as a man now even if you're really a female."


    Yeah, they SEE you as male, but they are wrong! Would you rather listen to the mirror or to the truth?

    ReplyDelete
  156. I didn't find that blog too helpful. Installing fake tits is not any better than the scars on my chest, it doesn't bring back what I originally had. I'm not interested in laser hair removal either, not that I could afford any of those things even if I wanted them. What's done is done, the hair is part of my body now and my breasts are gone. The hair on the face and chest does not make a male. Neither does the chest surgery. It doesn't matter what I know, transition is a social thing as detransition is as well. I shouldn't have done it in the first place and you can't reverse what's done by T or surgery. Piling on more surgery or procedures is not a way out either.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anon @ 8:10- if you stop the T and replace it with E (if you are post hysterectomy) some of the masculinizing effects will be reversed. Your face will feminize, (but the bone changes will not reverse), your body fat will redistribute to more female shape, your skin and hair will soften, you will look more female. You will also gain on average 13 more years of life. Your voice will not change back. Your genital changes will not go back. Your facial and body hair will not go back (although will soften and grow more slowly). Obviously baldness cannot be reversed.
    I'm sorry for the challenges you face. Around 20% of post op transsexuals regret transitioning. It's a shame it's such a taboo to discuss in the trans community, much less get support around. But you are not alone.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anon @8:10 here is a group for detransitioning support.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NoGoingBack/

    "THERE'S NO GOING BACK... ONLY FORWARD
    Stopping Your FTM or MTF Gender Transition

    NoGoingBack is a group for people of who spent time transitioning medically, socially, and/or physically to another gender... or who were TG/TS identified for part of their lives... And then chose to stop transitioning and/or stop ID'ing as transgender/transsexual.

    People seriously considering stopping their transition are welcome."

    ReplyDelete
  159. I've already stopped T and the only really noticeable effect has been muscle loss and periods restarting. My face still looks like a man. I still have a paper trail of name and gender change. I'll always have the shame of being trans stamped on me for life. There's no way to change that or what people already know about you. The only way it ends is like anything else, when you die.

    ReplyDelete
  160. @Anon February 26, 2011 9:25 PM

    Are you seeing a therapist?

    ReplyDelete
  161. Gallus,

    There are no accurate stats on trans regrets and currently given the closed trans community coupled with the mythomania that factors into transition, accurate stats of any kind are impossible.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anon@8:10,

    I agree, more surgery isnt an answer. Making peace with the female you are now is.

    good luck and I'm here if you need to talk.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  163. Anon, you are so negative! And I mean that in the real sense, not the "opposite of positivism" sense! The sense of not being able to smell the flowers.

    Some women have a happy trail, like me, some others like my aunt have traces of sideburns, others like Jennifer Miller have a full beard.
    Anon, I'm sorry if you regret what you did...but I can only tell you one thing (two, even). The first is that IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT. You chose, but your choice was not fairly informed. The second is that you still have most of your life to live, and that IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING!
    If you want to contact me write at mongenis@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  164. I remember back when I watched Gendernauts (or whatever it was called) it made me uneasy to see these Artsy-alternative type people really thinking by "transitioning" they are breaking new ground (like astronauts) and going where no one had gone before, etc. It seems like it all kind of snow-balled from there, as far as the FtM trend goes.
    I hope everybody who fell into that trap and did permanent things to their body are going to be O.K. when the regrets kick in.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Again, PERFECT example of why it shouldn't be so easy to transition. When I did it, you had to undergo extensive therapy, live for a year as though you had already transitioned, and add to that, more and more counseling before being given a script for T or allowed any surgeries. Now, any teeny bopper with a fleeting thought of 'hey, it would be cool to be trans' can walk in and out of a Dr's office in one day with a T script. Ridiculous. Another victim of a trend... people jumping on a bandwagon they don't belong on. Listen up people - DO THE WORK to find out who you are before making physical changes! If you truly are Trans, these changes can be a lifesaver, I know... if you aren't and you're just trying to 'find yourself', these changes can ruin your self image.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Anon@9:26am

    It makes little difference if you transition "overnight" or at 60 years old, it is all unnecessary, unhealthy and based in misogyny.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  167. well dirt, we have to just agree to disagree. I realize that you don't have any true insight where this is concerned - you aren't trans, and as far as I know, you aren't a psychiatrist. You're certainly entitled to your opinion regardless of how uneducated.

    ReplyDelete
  168. "truly are Trans" what a load of bullshit. There is no "true trans", all of it is in your mind 100%. Nobody is born something they aren't.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Last anon,

    They become trans after the male medical machine gets hold of them, that much is true. But if they do not faithfully shoot up, their medically created trans mind/body will soon slip back into a female mind with a mutilated female body.

    If they were "born trans" they wouldnt require drugs or cosmetic butchery to maintain their delusions or other people to believe in their delusions in order to create the false reality they so much need.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  170. LOL.... yeah yeah, whatever you say, it is all not-so-cleverly disguised sour grapes from people not all that secure in themselves (obviously) - I am fine with the fact that I wasn't born biologically male... I still get to BE who I want to be, look EXACTLY the way I want to, blend in to society, get married and enjoy all the privileges that come with that, and there's nothing you can do about it but run your mouths.... it makes me smile how pissed off it makes the man-haters

    ReplyDelete
  171. @Anon February 28, 2011 8:28 PM


    "I still get to BE who I want to be, look EXACTLY the way I want to, blend in to society, get married and enjoy all the privileges that come with that, and there's nothing you can do about it but run your mouths.... it makes me smile how pissed off it makes the man-haters"

    Is this not a damning self admission of the real reason FtM's transition? To "blend in" and conform and enjoy male privledge.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Canadian,

    Fear is a big motivator, and there arent many in this world who have the strength to be different, i.e. non conformist. Which tells clearly exactly what kinds of females the ftM community is chock full of.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  173. And may you experience all the judgement, hatred, and intolerance that you show others who differ from yourselves. The man hating, militant, whine-ass lesbos in this community are why we will most likely never have equal rights. Because the universe gives you back what you put out. You vomit intolerance all over the place, so enjoy the intolerance you'll experience the rest of your lives.

    ReplyDelete
  174. TX,

    There is nothing different or new in females hating themselves, it has been going on for many centuries. That some of us dare to share light on it, call it into question, doesnt make us "intolerant", it make us brave.

    Your comment btw is full of nothing but fear and self hate, give yourself break. Stop the hate.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  175. What it makes you (publicly) is an (obviously) self conscious, insecure little woman. You build yourself up (not very high) by looking down your nose at, and ridiculing others who you (clearly) don't understand. If you were so happy with yourself and your life, you wouldn't be on this never-ending soapbox of ignorance. Why don't you devote your time to something you CAN change, like I dunno, feeding the hungry in your community, or spreading the word about spaying/neutering pets. Things that could actually benefit from the energy of an attention starved woman.

    ReplyDelete
  176. TX, Again your female self hatred is showing. I'm not insecure, nor am I little. I'm a medium built proud Butch woman. And as a adult woman, it is entirely up to me on where my passions lie and how I choose to devote myself to those passions.

    Your hatred of women, because you hate the woman you are will never change so long as you do not challenge it. Stop hating yourself TX. Open yourself up to loving the female you are and you open yourself up to loving ALL women. That TX, is a beautiful thing.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  177. LOL dirt, I do love women.... and I am fine with the fact that I was born female bodied, I happen to love it when my wife fucks me. See contrary to what you THINK... my being trans has nothing to do with my genitalia. I am not ashamed AT ALL that I was born female bodied. I just have the right to BE and LOOK however I choose. So attempting to shame me, isn't gonna work sweetheart. I am fine with who I am. So whether you call me a man, woman, asshole, WHATEVER, means nothing to me. You don't get to judge who I am nor tell me who I can or can't be. I just think it's sad that you ridicule people who might be a little more fragile. No one likes a bully.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Anon@March 1, 2011 3:47 PM



    "The man hating, militant, whine-ass lesbos in this community are why we will most likely never have equal rights"

    It becuase of the "militant whine ass lesbos" that fought tooth and nail that women (including straight ones) have the rights they now enjoy. Nobody gets their due without being noisy and militant. But then again, you are to busy "blending in" and enjoying your new found male privledge and bashing "lesbos" to see that. Seriously, don't you get the irony of using a classic straight male slur("lesbo") to make your point about how intolerant we are.

    ReplyDelete
  179. She hates herself Canadian, and viciously all women, because we remind her of what she is, a female. And rather than work and challenge the things that made her hate herself, she bashes other women instead.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  180. Ahhh you're so off base... I don't hate anything about myself. I don't give two shits about the gender binary really. And I don't hate women at all, I had a strong, wonderful Mother, I have a strong feminist wife, and daughters who are feminists and activists, I just hate people who ridicule an entire community of people that they don't even remotely understand. I hate uneducated, unfounded, ignorant generalizations about a community in whose shoes you've never walked. That's what I hate. And if it happens to be a group of lesbians doing it, yeah, there's a group of women I hate. The rest of the women, the ones who can hold their heads up high and not step on others to do it, those are the women I love and admire.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Your comments betray the the truth, TX.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  182. LOL. Likewise with your smoke & mirrors dirty BOI.

    ReplyDelete
  183. @TX

    "Ahhh you're so off base... I don't hate anything about myself. I don't give two shits about the gender binary really."

    Why transition then?
    "I don't hate women at all, I had a strong, wonderful Mother, I have a strong feminist wife, and daughters who are feminists and activists,"
    Ahh yes the "some of my best friends are" arguement. The fact that you were so quick with the male sexist slurs when a "little woman" has the termnity to disagree with you says it all

    "I just hate people who ridicule an entire community of people that they don't even remotely understand. I hate uneducated, unfounded, ignorant generalizations about a community in whose shoes you've never walked."
    I love the arrogance here. You assume that people who have not transitioned have not experienced gender dsyphoria and could not possiblely understand. I have news for you. You are not that precious. Your experience is not that unique. A lot of us mere mortals have had the feelings you have had and have had the courage to accept themselves and to hell with society. Transitioning signifies a capitulation to stereotypes not some brave stance.



    "That's what I hate. And if it happens to be a group of lesbians doing it, yeah, there's a group of women I hate. The rest of the women, the ones who can hold their heads up high and not step on others to do it, those are the women I love and admire."

    Right and your have a devine right to your hate because someone dares to question you. That justifies your hate, while you attack others for being hateful. That makes perfect sense(rolls eyes)

    ReplyDelete
  184. Apparently TX doesnt comprehend the Foreigner pun, she must be young or not a rock fan.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete

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