Change Your World-NOT your Body

Sunday, January 16, 2011

The Lesbian Community and the Trouble with Trans(men)

Here is a pie chart of Friday's poll with an overwhelming majority choosing transmen as the largest cause for the plundering of the Lesbian community. Lesbian have long remained strong against keeping out male transitioners and rightly so, but we were lax when it came to female transitioners with a lesbian history.

We didnt foresee how testosterone would change them internally; we didnt foresee like their breast, their womanness and lesbianness would also be removed and incinerated from their being, we didnt foresee how the acquiring of male privilege would change them so, we didnt foresee how testosterone and male privilege would lead them to sexually objectify us, we didnt foresee they would bring privileged straight women into our mix, we didnt foresee them urging others in our mix onto transition, we didn't foresee them sleeping with men while still demanding access to our community, we didnt foresee a whole lot of things.

Young lesbians everywhere are suffering, lost and without a community because we failed to keep our community safe from men, any man or females calling themselves men. We have been shamed, threatened with violence and rape and screamed at for "transphobia" whenever we spoke up and declared ourselves Lesbians. Lesbian has become a dirty word, and those of us who refuse to "queer" ourselves by standing our lesbian ground, dirty with it.

We have a future to create, what would you like to see change for lesbians/the lesbian community? And what are you prepared to do to make those changes happen?

This is an open post for the female bodied.

dirt
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38 comments:

  1. I do private party lesbian only at my home...I invite women I meet in bars, at work, lesbian only-they can bring alesbian friend but no males (either bio or FTM)...and try to re-create women only/safe moment/spaces.

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  2. Anon,

    This is becoming more and more the norm among lesbians of all types.

    I think if we want things to change we build each other up, bond, feel safe in those private spaces so we can be strong enough to take it to the streets so to speak.

    If we remain in private we're going right back to the 40's and 50's we believed we had left behind.

    dirt

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  3. I'd hang out with more lesbians myself but where I live, they all prefer to be in the bar scene. It makes me sad. The local uni here has a lesbian sorority but they are queer and trans inclusive.

    I feel so alone....

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  4. It is so depressing: we have opened our doors, our bars, our lesbian centers, our student org, our advocacy group to those transmales, even our girlfriends and they have stolen us! Lesbians were screwed! At least gay males can still fuck those transmales and so have benefits from them (warm holes) and still keep their gay org and gay center (no damage done).
    But what about us? We are so stupid to have played the savor/mum role with those males wannabee...
    If I could have a time machine, I would come back in the early 90's and kick their fucking ass out of our lesbians places!

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  5. Tattooed dyke,

    You definitely are NOT alone!

    dirt

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  6. Anon@4:59

    We need to start taking our identities and spaces back! We cant go back and do over, but we can go forward and do differently!

    dirt

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  7. Who are all these straight women dating FTMs? Unfortunately, it's not unusual for women to settle for less than they need/want/deserve and to make excuses for other peoples bullshit, but....really??!

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  8. I was unaware that the feminist movement was also a group of segregationists. Should we also "White Places" and "Black Places", or rather accept that sometimes this still happens? Segregation and prejudice is the same no matter how you go about it.

    While I commend your effort in the attempted at an un-skewed poll, it is something that is unreliable on the internet. Many polling programs allow multiple votes, or with a simple deletion of cookies, you can vote again.

    I do not see anything tearing the Lesbian Community down, except us with stead fast discrimination amongst ourselves.

    In my 40 years I have learned to work to help people accept me for who I am, and I generally let others live their life as they choose because I don't want anyone deciding how I should live, or giving me a hard time for it.

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  9. @EJ,

    I dont think they are settling, you have mnetally unhealthy straight females dating mentally unhealthy female transitioners, it works. Or rather it works until the female transitioner is on "T" long enough to change her sexual orientation from lesbian to straight and she begins desiring men.

    None the less, neither belong among lesbians.

    dirt

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  10. I agree with Anon at 6:39.

    Who's the one's responsible for letting FTM's into the lesbian community? Is it our fault or YOUR fault? Yeah, I know my comment will be deleted just like my last one which of course is just typical!

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  11. Anon@6:39,

    If those whites were harming the black community I'd like to believe you'd have a different opinion.

    dirt

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  12. Wow, I have no desire to be with a man!!!! Where do you get your information from?

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  13. Clearly lesbians understand their mistakes by allowing female transitioner in. The comments here illustrate that. The question raised is how best to change the situation. How about offering some suggestions rather than trying to arguing a point already made.

    dirt

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  14. @ Dirt, when you can show me 100% really honest to goddess proof that commingling is destructive to the Lesbian community, and not just you and your group of segregationists maybe I would change my mind.

    Point is for as long as I have been out, I have been stronger, and prouder, and active in the community... AND have had friends from all groups.

    It has not harmed me, my strength as a woman, my feminist views or activities. In fact in a way I think my diversity has helped me more than hindered me.

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  15. "Clearly lesbians understand their mistakes by allowing female transitioner in. The comments here illustrate that." -Dirt

    Before I commented, there were 4 unique replies to that point. I hardly think that is a "Clear Understanding" and this this is one Lesbian that disagrees vehemently.

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  16. The Butch/Femme in an of itself is absolute proof, on a global level no less. And before someone says what Butch/Femme community, exactly my point. Now we see the same thing happening through all sub communities of the lesbian community and if you dont see that, you arent looking.

    dirt

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  17. If you have no issues with whats going on or not going on in the lesbian community, one has to wonder exactly what you're doing here other than to disrupt the issues with nonsense.

    dirt

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  18. I was sitting here reading my psychology book and was appalled to read about the case of Mary Calkins circa 1890 vs. Harvard College. William James, honored Harvard teacher accepted Mary Calkins into his psychology graduate seminar. When SHE was accepted, all the other attendees dropped because SHE was a WOMAN. James privately tutored and taught HER and when it came time Mary took all the exams and outscored all HER male counterparts. Even though SHE had completed the requirements for HER PH.D, Harvard refused it to HER simply because SHE was a WOMAN. The tried patronizing HER by awarding HER a degree from the SISTER college / Radcliffe. SHE refused the degree.

    I know this was 1890, but more than a century later Psychology students and professional psychologists are lobbying for Calkins to be posthumously awarded her well-deserved harvard PH.D.

    THEY STILL HAVE NOT AWARDED HER.

    So I ask why, oh why, do FTM's want to be apart of THIS. Why are they blind to this? Why are Lesbians transphobic when we adamantly do not want our strong, smart, attractive Lesbian WOMEN - or just WOMEN in general- to become MEN?

    The war of the sexes was a popular science fiction theme in the 60's when WOMEN were leading the sexual revolution and fighting for equal rights in the workplace.

    IT'S SAD THAT IT'S NOT SCIENCE FICTION WHEN APPLIED TO TODAY'S TIMES.

    Women are taking drugs and having surgeries to turn themselves into men... and in droves.

    * I want to state that I have known TRUE transexuals my entire life but I know a fad when I see one.

    women can do anything men can do.
    even if we can't open the tough pickle jars we can find a stronger women that can or build something that will open it for us.

    all we need to do is learn how to procreate without males. maybe evolution has this knowledge right around the corner.

    men are so busy building bombs and guns, it could be quite possible their are some evil lesbian geniuses out there figuring this out as we speak.

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  19. CONTINUED: ...

    IT'S SAD THAT IT'S NOT SCIENCE FICTION WHEN APPLIED TO TODAY'S TIMES.

    Women are taking drugs and having surgeries to turn themselves into men... and in droves.

    * I want to state that I have known TRUE transexuals my entire life but I know a fad when I see one.

    women can do anything men can do.
    even if we can't open the tough pickle jars we can find a stronger women that can or build something that will open it for us.

    all we need to do is learn how to procreate without males. maybe evolution has this knowledge right around the corner.

    men are so busy building bombs and guns, it could be quite possible their are some evil lesbian geniuses out there figuring this out as we speak.

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  20. I don't know how other dykes feel about MichFest, but I used to really enjoy going there, to feel re-connected to my lesbian roots & experience all of that female energy. I said MTF on the poll, because I no longer feel comfortable going there, or any so-called women's space. I do agree that FTMs are a problem as well. Both have made women's spaces vulnerable to male influence, especially sexual violence.

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  21. dknyht-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgUnfL6AoNU

    this is one of the comments left fot this video and its ironic how s(he) is bitching about Dirt's blog as she warns her tranny girl friends not to feel pressured to take t by the other trenders.

    im actually am genderqueer and i get pressure to start testosterone. it made me cry once. Then it like if im wearing too much female clothes and what not its your not genderqueer. makes me feel like im not in the communit. and im one of those people that really do need the community and too bond with people- because im one of the people who walls up. i havnt seen them and one of them said some fucked up shit too m so i just gav up. facbook and youtube i my only link
    SkyelarPuberty 16 hours ago

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  22. An answer, and we're working on it here in the Bay Area, is creating groups, forums, events for bio female Butch Female proud Lesbians only.....a place where Female identified Butches who have no intention of transitioning, or resisting the pressure to transition can come to talk about and connect with other Butches about our oppressions, about the pressure to transition that they are getting(especially the younger ones) to transition but are resisting it, or have attempted to transition, then decided it wasn't right for them, or damaging, and they they LEARNED to be proud of their Female minds/bodies/spirits and they STILL could be Butch and love women, and THEMSELVES AS WOMEN, first and foremost.

    These things are still nascent, but there has to be safe spaces for Butches to go, and other Lesbians where we don't have to hear talk of going on hormones, hating one's female body, or one's formerly male experiences(MTF's) ect. ect. where we can be around other bio female Butches or other bio female LESBIANS in a female environment WITHOUT SHAMING or being attacked for wanting to do so(you're 'transphobic', you're 'separatist'). Yeah, we ARE Separatist in that way, we WANT to have a space for OUR OWN....and we don't want to go to 'women and trans' events and parties, that are so common these days, that ANYONE with ANY body type as long as they don't identify as bio-male or bio-gay male, but ANYTHING ELSE, can still attend, and crash Lesbian and women's spaces and places, and the rest of us should shut the fuck up, as we hunger to be around Butches who are PROUD to be Female, instead of on "T" or having their breasts bound or cut off, or someone who claims to to female but still has a flesh penis, cuz chicks can have bio-dicks too and all such nonsense.

    We gotta counter the 'women and trans' trend, and create our OWN safe Lesbian, Butch Female friendly spaces and places, and talk amongst each other how under siege and how coopted the Lesbian/Dyke community has been for the last 10-15 years, and how under siege our Butches and those of us as Butch have been as well.

    Seems like alot of the younger ones are mentioning that others are constantly asking them: "When are you transitioning?" as if it's some Butch rite of passage these days. Except sadly, this rite has a permanency and serious side effects to it....
    -MasterAmazon
    P.S. So particularly for them, the young ones(as well as for ourselves) we NEED a safe space for Female identified Butches where we DON'T have to succumb to such pressure, and where we can speak our truths without censorship.

    We are rising again!

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  23. @ Dirt, when you can show me 100% really honest to goddess proof that commingling is destructive to the Lesbian community, and not just you and your group of segregationists maybe I would change my mind.

    Hmmm, I'm not sure that any amount of logical proof would change how you feel. First, because I suspect you are blind to how you are conflating "how you feel" with "how you think". The two are not the same. After decades of being exposed to civil rights lingo, it's easy to hear those buzzwords and then assume a legitimate oppression exists. It's more difficult to look past the lingo and analyze what it is that the transgenderism ideology really says.

    It says that if you want to wear a dress then you must be female. It says that if you want to perform engine repair than you must be male. Yet radical feminism is pretty insistent that you can do anything you want in the body you were born with. Radical feminism insists that it is illogical to match gender-coded behavior to gender-coded body parts.

    Transgendered supporters realized that the following argument is false: A penis is required to perform X (substitute any gender-coded BEHAVIOR for X). They realize that particular argument makes no sense, and so instead they say "oh I FEEL like a woman". Except they never bother to notice exactly how they are defining the term woman. Come to find out as soon as they include more accurate teminology, their argument becomes circular, like so:

    "I feel like a woman because I feel like wearing a dress and since only women wear dresses then I must be a woman".

    It makes no sense. It patently obviously clearly makes no sense and no matter how many times or how many ways the senselessness of it is delineated for you, you still don't understand how senseless it really is. Which is why I suspect that the IQ of "average" people is just too low to comprehend basic logic.

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  24. Dirt said: "The question raised is how best to change the situation."

    I think a lot of us just thought the FtM thing was isolated anomaly and we're really just starting to get a handle on the scale of what's going on. You've had a huge part in helping people see how prevalent this fad is. That's the first step in doing something about it. The related step is getting lesbians to talk about it and not shrugging it off as no big deal. It's like any insidious force - if you don't call it out and name it for what it is (in this case female-hating and lesbian co-opting), it hangs around like a parasite feeding off our community energy.

    The next step is to banish it and them from our community. It's as simple as saying: if you want to be a man, then go spend time with men and straight women and leave us the fuck alone. Obviously, the public spaces like bars and festivals are afraid to lose wider support and the dollars that go with that, so they are not going to be any help (and are actually pulling in the other direction). But some festivals do have discussion groups where this issue is hashed out so that more lesbians can get it and make the choice not to put up with any more destruction of our spaces.

    As one of the first commenters said, we'll probably have to do this with private events to start with (despite that being a return to the past - change happens in cycles, we just have to keep them moving forward). And I think more and more lesbians will join us as they tire of feeding the egos of all those people who wield their new-found male privilege to try to shut lesbians up.

    From those experiences, lesbians will be able to see the difference between having our own spaces and what the alternative has been. We will start demanding more of the same where we spend our money. We will have more support to say to bar owners: I don't want to be hit on by a man, period, in a lesbian bar. If that person thinks he's a man, he shouldn't be in our bar hitting on us. We will be able to say to festivals: I don't want to give my precious energy to people who want to talk about being men. We don't let born males ruin our experiences, we shouldn't be letting constructed men do it either. It will be a very straightforward discussion to have once we've done the groundwork we're doing right now.

    And during this period, when these people who are dying to be FtM see that we are not going to put up with them anymore, you can bet the ones who are actually lesbians will think much longer and harder about what the hell they're doing and their enablers won't be so fucking smug.

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  25. Dirt, you truly are an embarrassment to the lesbian community. That is all.

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  26. Dirt, you truly are A CHANCE to the lesbian community. That is all.

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  27. For one transmale converted:
    * at least one L place is invaded -> 100 lesbo impacted
    * all his actual & previously lesbo partners become straight emptying the local L scene -> 30 lesbo impacted
    * at least 2 or 3 of his lesbo friends decide to transition, emptying more the scene
    * at least 100 to 4000 people are exposed to the trans preach through youtubes and other social media emtying the country and worldwide L scene
    * among those lesbian viewers, 10% will enter also in a transition process repeating this viral scheme -> ie 10 to 400 lesbo impacted

    Conclusion: I am pretty sure you can build/design a viral statistics model describing how a transguy can contaminate with trans preach his gals, his city, his state, his country and the world and eradicate all lesbians from planet earth...As lesbians are only 10% of women, you can even predict when the critical mass will be reached...

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  28. "As lesbians are only 10% of women, you can even predict when the critical mass will be reached..."

    What is likely to happen is we will observe the lower % ever of lesbians/whole woman population for age range 18-35 due to the transition process...

    I think the % of lesbians in the whole population due to the trans plague has lowered to reach the % it used to be back in the 18th century...I estimate we don't have 10% of lesbo but 4% if you exclude the transitioners. It is just a visual observation at local bars and orgs.

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  29. Anon@7:36 -

    How did you get your statistics there? Are those from somewhere, or just your personal estimates?

    Also, why would a FTM's former partners be considered straight, assuming they go back to dating women?

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  30. "Also, why would a FTM's former partners be considered straight, assuming they go back to dating women?"

    I would say the female partner is bisexual then.

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  31. Anonymous 7:36

    About a month after I started dating, my then-girlfriend told me that *he* thought *he* was a man. We fought over that. I tried to make myself pansexual for him, tried to masturbate while thinking about male bodies, and so on, but never could - they turn me off. We started to resent each other, and eventually broke up.

    We never did have sex, but if we did, it wouldn't have made me any less lesbian. I am drawn, physically and emotionally, toward other women. Not men. Many ex-girlfriends and ex-partners of trans men are lesbian; please don't label them, or me, het, or ex-het, or not-lesbian-enough.

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  32. I agree with Anon @January 18, 2011 11:17 PM...

    WOW!

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  33. Based on the comments above:
    "I am drawn, physically and emotionally, toward other women. Not men. Many ex-girlfriends and ex-partners of Trans men are lesbian; please don't label them, or me, het, or ex-het, or not-lesbian-enough. "
    or "I would say the female partner is bisexual then.",
    it seems FTM have created confusion within the lesbians community about how a woman sees herself and how she is perceived when dating transmales.

    When a woman date a person whose body is so masculinized, she can't be called lesbian anymore. It is has nothing to do with how she feels in the inside. A lesbian is attracted to females’ body not males like body with beard, facial/body hairs...

    If you are a lesbian and read this comment, do quick lesbianism/FTM/male attractions test:
    1/ Go to this youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/charlesasher
    2/ ask yourself 2 questions:
    -"am I attracted by this person characteristics?"
    - and " how will I categorize the sexual orientation of a woman dating this person if she were previously calling herself lesbo: will I call her straight, lesbian or bisexual?"

    The answer is obviously bisexual!

    Once you date a Trans guy, you will be perceived as bisexual within the lesbian community whatever you want it or not...If you don’t want to, don’t date males like bodies!
    Call yourself "lesbian" but you don't fool anyone except you...

    It is also part of the queer bullshit to say you can still call yourself a lesbian after dating Trans guys...

    This queer speech was created by Trans guys for their own benefits.
    They created this non sense “I date Trans guys but I am still lesbian” to be able to hunt potential female partners inside the lesbian community.
    What all lesbians should have done instead is to think of the consequences of dating a Trans male on their sexual orientation and identity….Because the risk is high:

    I meet more and more “women who used previously to call themselves lesbians” totally confused about themselves and their sexual orientation. After a break-up with one of those trans guys, they have to go on therapy because their sexual orientation belief has exploded and they are lost. They do depression…They don’t know how to come back to the lesbian community & bars & friends without looking like a foe or a bisexual. Some of them are dating compulsively other trans guys to the point of being called “trans-guy carpet” because those women do not know where they fit anymore…Dating a Trans guy is not neutral on your sexual orientation and questioning. Even if this Trans guy used to be your girlfriend in the past…Don’t stay during a transition because you are kind, feel you should protect him….You are just destroying your own self, your identity..

    Dirt has not explored yet in her blog those women perspective but it may be great to do it.

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  34. A MUST SEE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkMk8xZf-0g&feature=feedlik


    I've bitched!!!!

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  35. I tend to agree with January 20, 2011 7:36 AM. The conversion process from viewers to FTM on YouTube is encouraged by transmales themselves through actions like "binders give away" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHimAgpbK4E), it is where a simple video can impact the life of 2/4 woman who then will transition and give themselves binders... Then do your math, it is just statistics!

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  36. "I tried to make myself pansexual for him, tried to masturbate while thinking about male bodies, and so on, but never could - they turn me off. "

    Why have you even tried in the first place to go against your nature just for him?
    It is like inflicting yourself self-violence...

    There is a strong belief in the queer community: the lesbian woman should force herself to date transmales ie males (sort of).

    If a bio male was asking you to do that ie to make it with him), you would have punched him in the face.

    So why have you done that to you? Why have you even tried to become pansexual?

    FTM are dangerous because they tend to make us believe homosexuality can be cured or that lesbians should make some efforts and forget their sexual preferences...

    Imagine a straight woman who suddenly wanted to enter in a FTM transition. (I had the case in my friends networks)
    Do you think that the straight male husband has turned himself into a gay male?
    No! He did divorce from her before she even started to become a "he", even before the T!
    Why has the husband divorced?
    Because he could not force himself to love males body whereas he is a straight male...So he stopped the mess there and he was right!

    So, in opposite, why lesbians are so eager to accept anything from their partner including changing their sexual preferences? What is wrong with you all? Do you really think it does not matter to date a masculinised body? Do you really think it will not have an impact on your mental health to do something you were not born to do?

    Again the mum, the nurse woman, the woman should sacrifice themselves clichés...?
    Can we be stronger than that?

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  37. I think the Anonymous from 7:05 REALLY hit the nail on the head.

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  38. Very interesting video where a straight transguy (ie a previous lesbian) is explaining "he has nothing to with the gay (lgb) community": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KQiGIkjjC0

    So why on earth some other transguys still go toe lesbians places or pump lesbians.org money?

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