Change Your World-NOT your Body

Tuesday, November 16, 2010

Topics Tuesday-The "Queer" Alphabet Soup Mix


Someone recently suggested I start a "topics tuesday", using a Mondays post for topic suggestions, then picking one for tuesday. I choose one to begin, then going forward, I will look to you for suggestions on Mondays.



Today's topic is the "Queer Alphabet Soup Mix". What are your opinions of the never ending additions to the "queer alphabet soup mix"? Has it gone too far? Not far enough? Has the additions to the Gay and Lesbian community pushed gay and lesbian rights forward or backward? Have lesbians been buried alive within the "queer mix"? As a gay or a lesbian, how do you feel about the co-option of "queer" by fringe groups, many of which are not gay or lesbian? Should gays and lesbians remove ourselves from the "queer mix"? Does the "queer mix" have our (gays and lesbians) best interests in mind or have us in mind at all?


Feel free to discuss the "queer alphabet soup mix" however you like, the above are merely some suggestions.

If your comment is not related to the chosen topic, it will be deleted.

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43 comments:

  1. I get the impression that some prominent gays couldn't care less about lesbians, let alone the alphabet soup.

    Equal marriage? Sure, that affects them.

    Repealing DOMA and DADT? Sure.

    Passing ENDA? Well, they don't know any poor people.

    Feminism? Isn't that for women? Let's focus on the stuff that's for everyone, that is, men!

    I don't trust a gay rights movement to do much for lesbian rights. I don't trust a queer rights movement much either; queer theory is bullshit and queer politics are full of transguy-fetishism.

    That said, anti-bullying activism is a good way to emphasize the role of misogyny in bullying and encourage people to take up radical feminism too.

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  2. Adding more letters doesn't address the problems.

    The thing is. Most of the hate that people under the rainbow umbrella face is fueled by the same gender separatist bullshit.
    Any man who's gay or bi or queer or whatever is deemed "not a real man" because his sexuality is associated with femininity, and women who are gay or bi or queer or whatever are deemed "in the need of a real man" because their sexuality is associated with an inability to get one.

    It's childish how the varying letters stab at one another instead of working together to try and press the point that we should all be allowed to be "ourselves" without the hyper-focus on genitalia or gender.

    None of this "real men" or "real women" bullshit.
    We should be allowed to be human beings.
    And not separate ourselves into minute factions just to join together and fight each other for "privilege".

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  3. As a kid growing up i saw it as,

    Homosexual



    Lesbian Gay

    Bisexual
    Transexual
    Queer
    Pansexual



    the soup has never been bunches togther like that, its a sort of generational chart

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  4. @Anon at 8:36am

    What simplistic pov, there are very real differences that must be taken into account and dealt with accordingly. How do you propose issues that affect lesbians lets say, are dealt with if issue specific to them get ignored as universal human beings? Human beings currently really meaning men.

    dirt

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  5. I think the alphabet soup is a joke and is starting to look like one in the eyes of society. On an episode of "Law & Order SVU" last season it was even a joke (the horrible Kathy Griffin episode; yes all episodes are horrible, but I refer to that one). I mean, adding "allies" to GLBTandQ now? When did straight people who are merely doing the *right fucking thing* get added to this? (Well, when they got added as "Q" because they like a little slap and tickle in the bed, innit). It just seems like adding things on is a way for people to feel precious about themselves and detracting from real things. Intersex, for example, having nothing to do with me being a lesbian. Or like it's often been said, muddying it up.

    Gay men often aren't interested in what goes on with lesbians, but gay men and lesbians have some very common interests. But with muddied waters, it's very easy for people - and I mean gay men and "queer theorist" types - to lose sight of very real issues affecting lesbians, such as income, health issues, etc. Gay men aren't about to lose their investment in male privilege and when I see these "queer women" who sleep and partner with men but insist that they're "femmes" or "queer" telling lesbians that our existence "devalues" their choices (to have dicks inside of them)... calling lesbian feminists "manhaters" simply because they dare question patriarchy, as if every female must, by rights, love men!... when our beautiful Butchies are under pressure from people under the "Q" to transition because some of these people can only see one way to be male and one way to be female... IDK, when it's at the point where you get people under 40 shuddering because you use the word "lesbian" while they toss out words like "heternormative" and "cis-gender," maybe it's time to find another bowl of soup...

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  6. I've run into more than one straight male kinkster who thought of himself as "queer," and made the stunning leap of assuming that lesbians, as "queers," should be interested in him.

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  7. The alphabet soup is a problem. Agreed that intersex has nothing to do with purposefully defying heteronormativity. Allies are not part of the group, either.

    As Anon2 notes: "Most of the hate that people under the rainbow umbrella face is fueled by the same gender separatist bullshit."

    EXACTLY.
    "Any man who's gay or bi or queer or whatever is deemed "not a real man" because his sexuality is associated with femininity, and women who are gay or bi or queer or whatever are deemed "in the need of a real man" because their sexuality is associated with an inability to get one."

    I think that some people frame the "Queer Agenda" as serving EVERYONE with non-normative sexual practices. That's where all the KINK acceptance comes in-- no matter how "straight" you are!

    I, on the other hand, have female-specific interests. And glorifying sexualized violence is not one of them.

    I am a lesbian. AND I am a dyke. And I am a feminist. But I am NOT queer. Queer does not serve me. And queer doesn't even know what it is-- it can't even define ITSELF! It is therefore USELESS. "Queer" lacks boundaries and, therefore, MEANING. Drowning in the mud!

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  8. I also agree with the Anon at 8:36 AM. Peoples' needs to categorize each other and lump people into different groups and labels can potentially have the effect of alienating each other and further segregating the human race from each other.
    I personally wish that men, women, and any other gender and sexuality can eventually get to the point where they are treated with equality and the degree of respect that comes from their personality and behavior, NOT their gender/sexuality/body parts/etc- even if it takes awhile for that sort of treatment to happen. Everyone has different personalities and shouldn't be expected to live up to some societal norm that someone set up. That type of segregation is hurtful and pressuring. People are people.. and yes, there are people who just see people as people that exist out there, but they are rare.

    @Dirt's reply to Anon at 8:36 AM
    How is that point of view simplistic? I've seen plenty of women who are also against lesbians and men who are very supportive of lesbians. There are also plenty of women that are in power or rising to power, and the boundaries of gender, sexuality, and gender identity are still being challenged today... it would be rather presumptuous to assume that only men are going to have control over Gay and Lesbian, as well as Queer issues. Sure our society may be patriarchal, but it's going to grow and change as long as people are trying and pressing for equality and showing others that they are also human and deserve to be treated on the same level. I don't want Lesbians of any type to be alienated or discriminated from society as much as you do, and I want their specific issues to be taken care of like every other human being.

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  9. Where I live, the queers are very, very prominent and it almost feels like people who define themselves as gay are becoming extinct. The queers raise funds for all kinds of queer projects and community centers and have huge, awesome parties. Everyone can hang out together- dykes, fags, trannies, drag queens- and we can celebrate the fact that we have each other's back. As a transman, these queer events are some of the only places I can go with my girlfriend and have our relationship recognized as non-hetero, so I value these queer spaces. If anything, gay men have invaded these spaces and made them so crowded that they are intolerable. The truth was WE built it and THEY came. I think that the gays should split off from the queers politically if they don't see that strength in numbers works.

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  10. I fully support, and feel strongly for lesbians removing themselves from the umbrella and being their own separate group. That way there's plenty of room for their hatred towards men whether bio or trans. and they can continue to preach to the choir like what goes on here, and not worry one bit about listening to others voices and experiences... because there won't be anyone else under their umbrella. So I'd be all for a GBTQIA community!

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  11. It seems like lesbians have very little in common with gay men socio-economically. And as far as health activism goes, the issues, addictions, and diseases are largely different. In fact, lesbians seem to be much more inclined towards activism, feminism, and human rights in general. I don't mean to be a hater, but some of the gay rights marches I've been to have seemed like we were marching for the right to own condos and shop at Bed, Bath and Beyond-just like anyone else. Don;t get me wrong-I like a well-decorated bathroom as much as the next guy, but there are still issues of life and death on the table, and class seems to be a a bigger deal.
    In queer groups, I've seen a much greater embracing of femininity and feminism in general amongst women, men, ftm's, butches, femmes, bisexuals, mtf's alike. Personal identities are not erased but they are not emphasized compared to the larger issue of freedom and dignity for all of us. Gay men who sleep with transmen (and there are plenty) will often still identify as gay men-because it is masculinity they are drawn to.
    It seems to me that more people choose this because it allows more personal freedom. My experience in the gay community was that there was alot of judgement around having ever slept with a member of the opposite sex. There seems to something limiting about having to identify some way based on who you sleep with. I think many people are drawn to circles where there are opportunities to *not know* what you want, if only for a minute. I feel it is a superior, and more workable identity for getting rights. And I'm more interested in actually having a better world than I am invested in sequestering myself from other humans.

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  12. Anon @1:07pm: Where do you get off claiming that your relationship with your girlfriend is non-hetero? You're a man. She's a woman. That's the definition of hetero. You don't get to go around with your straight privilege all day and then at night go to "queer spaces" and slum with the gays and expect to be seen as "non-hetero." And you most certainly don't get to then claim that the gay guys "invaded" your space.

    And who the hell do you think you are to tell the gays we should split off from the queers? You colonize a space defined as non-hetero, insist on your relationship being accepted as non-hetero, and then resent the presence of the original non-hetero people?

    I am trans and I am gay (i.e. actually non-hetero) and I am offended by your comment, probably more than I am by most of what Dirt says.

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  13. LGBTTIQQ2SA

    Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer, Questioning, 2-spirited and Allies

    WTF?

    Lets just make a group called "humans" and ya know what? we'll have every letter of the alphabet included since were all people!

    90% of the world has no idea what most of the letters stand for or even what the terms mean. Why even bother separating each gender/sexuality issue then combine it with others again? Kind of defeats the purpose.

    Lets separate everyone so we can acknowledge the differences. The combine everyone that is different from society's norm into one big group.

    How about we try this on for size: Let everyone be who they are, no names, labels, groups, hatred, or anger.

    Oh wait everyone likes being different and having a woe is me mentality.

    Nevermind then

    ~M

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  14. @Evan-

    I don't care if you are a flying pear....
    I don't give a fuck if you are offended by what I say. The QUEERS define the space, the party, the music-not the gays. And yes I do get to go around with whatever privilege during the day and still be seen as queer when I attend a queer event. Not a "gay" event". With my queer friends who recognize my relationship as queer. Not a gay event. We still have those in town. And yeah, the gays invaded the queer space. It used to be people who defined themselves as queers, but gay people brought the woman-hating, the man-hating, and the rigid definition of what can be desired. And I don't "slum" with the gays, I hang out with my friends...stop feeling sorry for yourself and acting like such a martyr.

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  15. There was a time when hetero were brave enough to go to gay and lesbian parties without the "Queer" umbrella protection. Where are all the balls gone Mr "non-hetero." ? :D !

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  16. And yeah, I think the gays *should* leave the queer scene politically if you can't get down with including people that aren't just like you. Gays aren't the original non-hetero's in the queer scene. Queers are.

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  17. If you ever read the comments from supporters on any FTMs youtube videos, you'll notice the word "Bro" or "Man" used after every sentence...."Great video, bro!" or "Keep you head up, man!"

    .....

    I cannot help but laugh my ass off at this for so many reasons. It proves basically everyhing Dirt says on this blog.

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  18. If these FTM girls were "just like any other guy and no different" then they would not make thousands of videos on a public forum obsessively talking about insipid things such any time a hair grows on their face which oh by the way "you cannot see on camera in this light LOL"

    Saying things like "My life is not all about being trans!"

    and yet you've label the video FTM and talk about nothing but some dumbfuck stranger who called you a pronoun. What a great life!!!

    These girls are insane, cannot say that enough.

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  19. Actually, I half-agree with Anonymous at 1:07.

    A lot of people are attracted to the other sex, or involved with the other sex, but not in the ways that straight culture expects:

    A straight guy who wants the girl to make the first move.

    A straight girl who every guy takes for lesbian, or a straight guy who every girl takes for gay.

    A straight girl who wants to continue to befriend other girls.

    A straight guy and a straight girl who want to live as friends, lovers, and equals, without male privilege, gender expectations, or anything else getting in the way.

    Not that long ago, I think Dirt noted that straight guys sometimes fantasize that lesbian relationships are better. And those guys may be right [though it's no use trying to become lesbian]. Lesbian relationship norms are much healthier than what I've seen, among my friends, of straight relationship norms.

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  20. The problem with "queer" is that it's a bunch of people defining themselves by what they're not. "Queer" literally means strange or peculiar. Calling yourself that suggests that you have a perpetual adolescent mentality.

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  21. @Ben,

    The fact that you THINK I look like a man, illustrates and proves everything I have said here regarding how the trans mentality is formed. I look nothing like a man, I'm a woman who looks 100% female.

    And if you actually read more than two lines on this blog you would know I do now nor have I EVER claimed to want to be "masculine".

    And try catching up, the fake insane journal your are referring to that the trans trenders made up was disproved two minutes after it was created. I actually have an insane journal account. Feel free to read it, you find it coincides with everything posted here.

    You as a trans person surely knows first hand what it is to live a lie and how the entire trans disorders fragile reality is built about lies, given that one would think you might seriously check out any and all info coming from the trans mythomaniac community before you spout off and make yourself look like a complete idiot.

    dirt

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  22. "Queer" has become synonymous with "NOT Lesbian or Gay".

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  23. Dirt, I like a good argument as much as the next guy, but we are getting derailed by the ftm thing again (a hott topic, I guess)

    but ...can we please stick to the GLBTQ politics discussion? It is very important and I hate to see everyone's dignity go down the drain when we start attacking each other personally!

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  24. Does the "queer mix" have our (gays and lesbians) best interests in mind ?
    -----------------
    Some women call themselves queer because they are specifically attracted to lesbians with body dysphoria. They encourage dysphoria and they want to have relationships with people whose bodies disgust them.
    They often call themselves "stone femme" which specifically means "dysphoria supporting femme".
    These queers are everywhere although their interests are opposed to the health and well being of the lesbian partners they seek.
    Lesbian PSA: If a woman calls herself "queer femme" or "stone femme"- RUN!

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  25. "Feminism? Isn't that for women? Let's focus on the stuff that's for EVERYONE, that is, MEN!"

    Anon @ 8:01: This had me rolling! lol

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  26. "Queer" has become synonymous with "NOT Lesbian or Gay".

    This seems true where I live. Alot of queers seemed to feel embarrassed by using the term gay or lesbian. Like it's old-fashioned or too limiting. I don't see any harm in the word-it only has the positive or negative value you attribute to it...

    Though I have to say, the gays are enjoying a sort of backlash, where they refer to everything and everyone as "gay". They claim people who have not even come out as gay, or even tiny toddlers who seem to be tomboys or fey. They seem to have forgotten that this is a different world these kids are growing up in and people are just as likely to identify as trans, or gay japanese cartoon character, or space-alien for that matter...

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  27. ps Dirt I hope you had a good time getting outta town for the weekend.

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  28. "Does the "queer mix" have our (gays and lesbians) best interests in mind?"

    No, not specifically. Not above the interests of other queer people. More and more, I find that queer and class are being brought together. This will certainly be alienating for upper class gays and gay conservatives. In recession time, an economic view of liberation may come to the forefront and some of us might find ourselves fighting alongside (gasp!) straight men and women in labor strikes and union negotiations. Gay people will no longer be able to claim victimhood
    and martyrdom in a society that addresses economic disparity. Which level of Maslow's Pyramid are you working on?

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  29. LOL dirt... you look like a man, sorry to tell you. And all the ugliness you spread is showing... hate ages you even faster. Enjoy!

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  30. I'm a radical lesbian feminist, simple. I am NOT GAY NOT QUEER...There really is only one word I love LESBIAN; all others are women erasing nonsense. Lesbian nation is about lesbians organizing for lesbians, and no one else can come in the door, because this erases lesbians every time. To me there are no coalitions, because again, this erases women. Any time I meet a woman who calls herself "gay" it is a warning sign that she's not really woman centered... she is not 100% loyal to lesbian nation.
    Gay men and lesbians have absolutely nothing in common culturally, mentally or spiritually. Men are rapists, sexists and pigs, and do not have women's best interests in mind at all. It is a complete waste of time for lesbians to ally with any men at all, and we have to be very careful with straight women, who are basically colonized by the Penis brigade.
    True lesbian nation stands on its own, and should continue to develop it's own country. No collaboration helps lesbians become self-sufficient or powerful.
    The "gay" movement has nothing to do with the non-negotiable rights of separatists who view all men as oppressors. It's as simple as that!

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  31. Anon@8:12. "Queer" is an invention of the ivory tower. I'm guessing you were not an adult during the eighties and nineties, or you would know this. Most of the people who go around calling themselves "queer" are have spent some time in a university setting, and tend to be from middle-to-upper class backgrounds. Some of them like to pose as working class because it seems exotic and outlaw-like to them. (It's actually pretty patronizing.)

    Your queer class warfare fantasies notwithstanding, most working class gays and lesbians call themselves gay and lesbian. If anything, they associate the term "queer" with "people from outer space who all move to San Francisco so they can ruin the last decent bars there."

    Signed,
    a longtime gay union worker.

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  32. no one cares about lesbians because dykes are annoying and boring. why do you think us FTMS transition? we want to be real people and not just some stupid chick!

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  33. lesbianplusfeministNovember 17, 2010 at 2:28 AM

    The problem with the whole alphabet soup deal is that it gives people the illusion that we are all one big, happy family, fighting for the same things. In reality, we are often fighting for different things, and, sometimes, for things that are totally at odds.

    Dirt, I'm sure you've noticed all the FTMs that leave comments and make youtube videos asking, "why are you criticizing us, I thought we were on the same team?" or something similar. They've lumped lesbians and trans people together in their minds and have trouble dealing with the reality that lesbians' issues and perspectives are not the same as those of trans people. So many dissimilar groups are lumped together that it isn't even clear what we are supposed to have in common.

    It does not benefit lesbians to support or concern themselves with gay men fucking each other to death (bug chasers) and developing eating disorders, males (MTFs) prostituting themselves to pay for cosmetic surgery and being assaulted by the straight men they lie to, the BDSM population getting off on beating the shit out of each other, straight people who want street cred by claiming to be "queer," or any of the other twisted, anti-feminist bullshit that goes on in the alphabet soup. Lesbians need to take care of lesbians and keep fighting to end misogyny in general, including dragging as many womyn as possible away from transitioning. It's fine for us (lesbians) to support basic rights (such as housing and employment without discrimination) for other groups, but, when we start moving past that, into males' attempts to be recognized as female or some other shit that is in direct opposition to what's best for womyn, that's when we need to step away from the lgbtwxyz.

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  34. Alexander (same one again)November 17, 2010 at 6:57 AM

    I find queer spaces far more accepting of me as a trans man, certainly, but in gay spaces (predominantly gay male spaces, I don't have much experience of lesbian spaces) I find my relationship and identity far more validated. In queer spaces there's more pressure to further 'queer' my relationship, to be poly, or kinky, or furry, whereas in gay spaces my relationship is accepted as it is.

    I think there's a time and a space for gay people, lesbian people, bisexual people and trans people to come together, where we're discussing discrimination experienced because we're not acting in the way society deems appropriate for our sex, but at the same time I don't think just because one's part of this alphabet soup one should support every other part. As a trans man I care about trans issues, and as a gay man I care about gay and lesbian issues, but I wouldn't expect a cis gay man to want to work towards trans issues, or a straight trans man to want to work towards gay / lesbian issues.

    I think the risk of queer spaces is that they become competetively 'queerer than' - I'm a trans man dating a cis man therefore we're 'queerer than' other groups, but we're monogamous so we're 'not as queer as' say a cis/trans poly group. - This isn't something to which I subscribe, by any means, I think it's dreadful, but I do think that queer spaces deny the voice and experiences of people in gay and lesbian relationships, because they're seen as 'not queer enough'

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  35. "How do you propose issues that affect lesbians lets say, are dealt with if issue specific to them get ignored as universal human beings?"

    If they were recognized as human beings on par with all other human beings, there wouldn't be "lesbian specific" problems.

    If we were equal, then no subgroup would be prejudiced again.

    "Human beings currently really meaning men."

    Maybe where you live, but where I live, we've made strides towards equality.
    I'm not saying that we've gotten "everything" right yet, but we're working on it. Every day we're closer than the next.

    One of the problems we face still is how boys are still being raised to be "strong" and "men" and little girls are still being raised to be "little princesses". At least during the first 5 or so years.
    This problem is kept alive by the mothers more than the fathers as (studies show that) stay at home dads in our society are more likely to treat their children equally than stay at home women.

    @Dyke2010
    Anyone who states that all members of a sex are the same is a sexist, no matter which sex they belong to.

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  36. @lesbianplusfeminist. *Applause.*

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  37. In reading this I see many accurate observations of the social environment out there today. Here are a few examples that really hit home from what I've seen personally:

    Anonymous @ November 16, 2010 10:46 AM said "I've run into more than one straight male kinkster who thought of himself as "queer," and made the stunning leap of assuming that lesbians, as "queers," should be interested in him." Yep. Happens.

    Alexander @ November 17, 2010 6:57 AM describes "In queer spaces there's more pressure to further 'queer' my relationship, to be poly, or kinky, or furry" and "I think the risk of queer spaces is that they become competetively 'queerer than'" and Alexander goes on to also say that "queer spaces deny the voice and experiences of people in gay and lesbian relationships, because they're seen as 'not queer enough'" Thanks, Alexander- this aptly describes some aspects of the current social environment.

    And another excellent example from Femme Dyke November 16, 2010 9:24 AM: ""queer women" who sleep and partner with men but insist that they're "femmes" or "queer" telling lesbians that our existence "devalues" their choices".... Yes, Femme Dyke, I've seen a fair amount of variations on this theme, too.

    Good discussion.

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  38. "Your queer class warfare fantasies notwithstanding, most working class gays and lesbians call themselves gay and lesbian. If anything, they associate the term "queer" with "people from outer space who all move to San Francisco so they can ruin the last decent bars there."

    No, you must be talking about older gays and posers that you know.
    The working-class queers in my town are legitimately working class, and probably could not afford to pay rent in San Fran.
    Please, don't talk about what you don't know.

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  39. Anon@1:19. You are mistaken. I am talking about a wide range of age groups, late twenties on up. You obviously have no idea who lives in SF -- it's not all rich people. I am also referring to the many, many non-heterosexual people who used to drive a long way to go to the gay watering holes in SF, but now avoid it like the plague because it's full of people they consider weird, usually correctly. That includes anyone using the term queer. At some point, your friends are going to grow up, and want a more wholesome (yes, I said wholesome) environment for themselves, too. It's not really a generational thing, it's a real life thing.

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  40. When I came out, I thought I was coming out as a LESBIAN. Instead, I find myself being lumped in as "gay" or, increasingly, "queer" whether I like it or not. Trans insists we recognize their identity, yet there really is no room for an identity outside of "queer".

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  41. @G:
    "Sure our society may be patriarchal, but it's going to grow and change as long as people are trying and pressing for equality and showing others that they are also human and deserve to be treated on the same level."

    Lemme help you out there:
    Sure our society may be patriarchal, but it's going to grow and change as long as WOMEN are trying and pressing for equality and showing MEN that WOMEN are also human and deserve to be treated on the same level.

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  42. ["Alot of queers seemed to feel embarrassed by using the term gay or lesbian. Like it's old-fashioned or too limiting."]
    I can't tell you how grateful I am of this. We already have Bi swingers and male crossdressers trying to lie and call themselves lesbian. At least lesbian has an actual meaning. Let them co-opt the term "queer" instead. I never liked that word anyway. It's so nineties.

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  43. The alphabet soup is so problematic. I present to groups on these issues and if I say "LGB" when refering to some general issue of sexual orientation, I get corrected by those who say "GLBTQA*", when of course I wasn't even discussing the T or Q or A or the undefined *.

    Women get lost under GLBTQ.

    Lesbians are vilified when not ignored.

    It is painfully inaccurate and apolitical.

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