Change Your World-NOT your Body

Wednesday, July 7, 2010

The Truth about Lesbians and Transmen (FTM)

Trans(men) and lesbians, another area that has been shrouded in trans shadows and darkness for far too long, so in my customary fashion I will cast some light onto the shadows and some sun into the darkness. I'll begin with the simple question, then move on from there.

Do lesbians date trans(men)? The simple truth is there is no simple truth but the simple answer is a resounding NO! I'm going to for a moment brush with a few broad strokes, but any lesbian even those who may just be coming out, if you've been to a lesbian only bar just once this will be completely transparent. So what or rather whom I will broad stroke are the major categories of lesbians and their relations (if any) with trans(men).

Let's begin with our garden variety Lipstick Lesbian...the lipstick lesbian for purposes of clarity is the stereotypical feminine lesbian who easily "passes" in straight society. Lipstick lesbians are also attracted to other lipstick lesbians and the occasional classy andro dyke. They tend to mingle only with those who fall into their group type and generally speaking despise the Femme/Butch community, in fact most will make no bones about how "repulsive" they find Butch lesbians as well as how horrified they are that Femmes find Butch women attractive. So will/do Lipstick Lesbians

date/relate with

trans(men)? Obsofuckinglutely not!

Since I mentioned the Andro Dyke above, lets go with her next...the Andro Dyke is called as such because she has or plays with an androgynous appearance. Meaning, while stereotypical feminine by nature, she also usually has a sporty nature about her as well. Because she isnt rejected or invisible in ways Butch or butch persuasioned lesbians are, she is more comfortable in her skin which creates an air of confidence that works well with her androgynous sometimes glam look. Andro dykes tend to date within their own andro group, but will sometimes partner will lipstick lesbians. Will/do andro dykes

partner with
trans(men)? Not in a million years!

Okay lets move on to the last largest group of lesbians who help make up the lesbian community, your softball or tweener dyke. The tweener dyke is just that, located somewhere between lipstick/Femme and Butch. Unlike lipstick/Femme lesbians these lesbians usually do not pass as straight and unlike Butch lesbians they rarely pass as male. Generally speaking they make up largest group of lesbian women world wide, they also make up the largest group of women who transition. I know many believe Butch lesbian are the only women transitioning, but thats because 1) Butches have and remain ignorantly viewed as some form of male (at least by those who do not know Butch women) and 2) because many tweener dykes have co-opted the "butch" label so that when these women transition they do so as (in name only) "butches" or "stone butches".
 Now will/do softball/tweener lesbians

date trans(men)?

The answer is both no and yes. No they do not as tweener lesbians, but a huge yes once they transition (The "T" begins altering their brains), along with also having sex with gay men after transition. As tweener lesbians generally couple with each other, when one tweener partner transitions very often the other partner will soon follow. The majority of trans(male) couples that dominate the ftM community were once tweener lesbians.

Next up the Femme lesbians...In a nutshell Femme lesbians are seemingly, visually at least, stereotypical feminine lesbians. What separates them from lipstick lesbians? Femme lesbians are primarily attracted to Butch lesbians. They desire butch energy, tough butch exteriors that fight against societal female norms coupled with the female sensitivity, female understanding, female intimacy and female bodies Butch women posses. Do Femme lesbians
date trans(men)?

The simple answer is a big fat NO! But because some insecure self hating Butch women do transition, the true answer is slightly more complicated. In general a Femme lesbian will not date a trans(man) who may hit on her while trespassing in lesbian spaces. Femmes are lesbians after all, they desire women's bodies as much as any other lesbian and they KNOW once they have a Butch naked, she is ALL woman. Now there are Femmes who have been in termed relationships with Butch women and the Butch announce at some point she's going to transition. What usually happens in these case is this, the Femme compassionately listens to the Butch's pleads and assurances that nothing will really change, they'll be the same person on the inside that the Femme fell in love with (conveniently ignoring the outside the Femme fell in love with). The Femme loving this person and wanting this person to be happy will stay in the relationship. Providing the Butch doesn't have their breast hacked off within the first few months on "T", the Femme will stay trying to hold onto the woman they once knew/fell in love with, but around the 5 or 6th month on "T" when physically and mentally the Butch is clearly no longer the person (let alone the woman) that they once were and sooner if they no longer have breast, the Femme will leave.

And last but certainly not least, the Butch lesbian. Butch lesbians are butch women who primarily partner with Femme lesbians. Do Butch lesbians

date
trans(men)? Never comes the day!

So the short of it is, through circumstance some lesbians may find themselves in relationships with trans(men) before and slightly after they transition, but lesbians of all varieties do no seek trans(men) to partner with nor stay when a partner tranistions. There is a reason we're lesbian after all, and this is because we find women/womens bodies/womens minds irresistible. (and I do have a certain Femme in mind as I write this)...lol

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20 comments:

  1. This is a great article, and I like how the photos illustrate each point in the argument! Genius, but then butch lesbians are just that :-)

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  2. I'm a lesbian who doesn't feel that I qualify for any of those categories. More than anything else I look like a frumpy middle aged librarian, and have never been mistaken for being a man. I have been attracted to many different kinds of women. That being said, I also would not date a transman, ever. Or a transwoman.

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  3. Why would a LESBIAN (woman attracted to other women) date a MAN (of any sort, be he trans or born male?) in the first place?

    It's like a gay dude (guy who likes other guys) being attracted to females (be they born or trans).

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  4. The overwhelming majority of L/Gs, don't take the the TG/trans and their devotees seriously. They see them as a tiny, fringe group of broke people who have attached themselves, parasite-like, to the lesbian and gay community.

    The male-centric devotees that do embrace them are minimal lesbians at best.... They prefer their men disarmed and neutered. They prefer their "lesbian" partners "stone".

    In both cases, we're dealing with hegemonists. White and/or assimilationist liberals without a "politic", beyond what serves them (including hegemonic marriage "rights" for their straight-mimicking lives). These folks went shopping for a cause and found one in TG/trans. Other than that, they have no politic.... Taking on anything more risky, say racism, white privilege, neo-colonialism would actually cost them something. They'd have to put their privilege at risk - they'd have to do some sustained inner work on themselves. Not these folks. They're armchair revolutionaries. Being a trans advocate costs them nothing except some bandwidth.

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  5. Seriously, on all the blogs I read I'm so sick of reading know-nothing drive-by commenters with their "queer" drivel (I'd call it "theory", except that it isn't) saying "OMG you're trying to put everyone in a BOX! I hate LABELS, blah blah blah"... because their self-obsessed wonderful, sparkly specialness makes them transcend all "labels" of course. Except the ones that they themselves invent on an almost daily basis, hence the never ending stream of letters the LGBTQWTFLOL!#11 "community" is now sporting. And since when did being trans involve not being in a box? Transitioning is moving yourself from one box to another, which reinforces the gender binary (that happens to oppress women) nicely. Thanks.

    I don't know any lesbians who would date a trans person. Although there seems to be a lot of self-doubt surrounding lesbian identity these days, no thanks to the "your identity is whatever you say it is, even if it isn't" brigade who think you should be treated as a millionaire, or a paraplegic, or a unicorn, just because you say you are one, who also suddenly seem to think that "just" being a lesbian is a passe and dull. So, I certainly wouldn't drop down dead with shock if I knew of a lesbian dating a trans man, but is it common? I think not.

    Speaking for myself, being a lesbian is a celebration of femaleness in all of its forms, not dictated by patriarchy, in a world that hates women. To be with a biological female who has enough hatred for her female self that she would deliberately try to erase it is the antithesis of lesbianism. Erasing the existence of women in all their forms is what men do. Hence me being a lesbian.

    I don't hate trans men any more or less than anyone else. It's hardly surprising that "masculine" women think that they're "really a man" when the patriarchal definition of "woman" is so fucking narrow, and any woman that deviates from it is so demonised (ditto mtf, to a different extent of course). But lesbian women aren't bigots or bitches or cunts or any other horrible kind misogynist name you can think of just because we don't accept the "identities" of everyone around us without question. Anyone who would call a woman a bitch or a cunt has no place being an activist for any kind of acceptance until they've found as many dictionaries as they can and looked up the words "hypocrite" and "misogynist".

    Thanks for a series of interesting posts Dirt.

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  6. Sam,

    This To be with a biological female who has enough hatred for her female self that she would deliberately try to erase it is the antithesis of lesbianism is brilliant!

    thank you

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  7. The majority of relationships (of lesbian nature) that start pre-T, will no longer exist 2 years after T begins. Do you see a conflict in LESBIAN and STRAIGHT MAN... Think hard about this. If you ID as a hetero male, then you need to find a hetero woman. At minimum, a hetero guy needs a bisexual woman. Think about it this way, how many lesbians do you know getting together with straight guys? How many gay men seek out lesbian women? Sure, on occasion, im sure some act of God enables 2 people with different sexual orientations to cohabitate, but not often. Why should a lesbian change her sexual orientation to suit a FTMs needs?

    Of the roughly 20 couples I've treated who began there relationship in the context of *lesbian* and where one partner came to realize his masculine identity and subsequently plan a transition (to include T and surgeries), all of these relationships failed within the 2 year time frame.

    Reasons given by the non-transitioning partner for the breakup: completely happy with a lesbian relationship, and desired a partner with female body parts and a masculine energy, loss of identity, many women who had previously lived straight had alot of difficulty transitioning themselves to a lesbian identity. They did not want to give up there struggle to appease there partner. (this is very very consistant answer) They felt there partner (FTM) wanted total support for his transition, and neglected there identity issues, Testosterone changes: most women I have spoken to have told me various changes that came with T. The most important changes were emotional. Non transitioning partner often felt neglected, pushed aside, best summed up by one "he expected me to celebrate every hair, whim, voice change, and gave no energy in meeting my needs" and Least complained about but happened in several couples was the FTM wanted to explore gay men.

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  8. Let's be honest - FtM's aren't men, they masquerade as men. Most lesbians aren't interested in that. It bothers me to see so many people (also lots of young butches) permanently damaging/changing their bodies to becoming freaks/medical experiments. I just hope they'll all be OK when it's no longer "in." In the end, many will probably end up in relationships with eachother.

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  9. The truth about Female to Male transition is here : http://mikeraudaskoski.blogspot.com/2010/03/truth-about-transitioning-from-female.html

    What fears me the most about FTM transition is the change of sexual practices & partners (from lesbian to gay male) not followed by safe sex practices. By having sex with biological gay males and then with "lesbians", FTM can really be a vector for transmission of HIV and STD within the lesbian community hence increasing the HIV prevalence risk in the lesbian community...

    ReplyDelete
  10. Dear Dirt,

    do you plan to do a post on "The Truth about straight women and Transmen (FTM)) ?

    It may be useful too...

    Just asking because I have found this link and photos on livejournal...http://xxasimont.livejournal.com/96151.html

    So it could be great to have a post that study how FTM relates to their family, grand-parenthood and parenthood themselves in a straight relationship and how it may influence the younguest in the family...

    Apart from that, dating a FTM for a straigth woman implies:
    * to be legally with a female but socially with a male (if ID are not changed) so it may lead to misunderstanding with the family & relatives & co-workers ...
    * to date a sterile man (if kids are on the agenda, it makes life difficult)
    * to have less pleasure because your man comes without the usual male genetalia (sexuality, pleasure and reproduction impact)
    * to be the private guest of a second teenagehood drama (hairs growing, dick clit size, acnea)
    * to be trapped in a political activism whose mantra is "transphobia" that will have impact on your couple life because everytime you may express your concerns to your transpartner and friends, you will be named "transphobic". So in the name of transphobia, be prepared to say yes to the (trans) commander in chief and to shut your mouth...(what? what? it is misoginy ? yes but trans-misoginy so you MUST accept it ;o)
    * the lack of focus and care and understanding of your own needs as a woman because most of the time you will be second or 10th priority on the "to do list" (just after updating his FB page or uploading a video on his youtube channel)
    * the unmalehood of the transmale...As a straight woman, you think you will date just a guy without genetalia but it is more complex as more often you will date a narcissistic pervert (whose dysphoria will grow as much he is doing surgeries or body change and so the drama will never end). So you will not date a male in fact but the little queen (the curly hair girl who is trapped inside those transmale)...Note that most transmale those days due to the transmania & fashion frenzy ("trans is the new black" as may say Karl L) do their transition without even knowing what malehood means...
    *you will get more risks to get STD or HIV as more transmale are sexually "queer" or " bisexual" and so you will be, sometimes without knowing it, exposed to HIV prevalence of the gay male community and to not so funny STD...

    ReplyDelete
  11. Comment in 2 parts (part 1 / 2) The Truth about straight women and Transmen (FTM)

    Dear Dirt,
    do you plan to do a post on "The Truth about straight women and Transmen (FTM)) ?
    It may be useful too...
    Just asking because I have found this link and photos on livejournal...http://xxasimont.livejournal.com/96151.html
    So it could be great to have a post that study how FTM relates to their family, grand-parenthood and parenthood themselves in a straight relationship and how it may influence the younguest in the family...
    Apart from that, dating a FTM for a straigth woman implies:
    * to be legally with a female but socially with a male (if ID are not changed) so it may lead to misunderstanding with the family & relatives & co-workers ...
    * to date a sterile man (if kids are on the agenda, it makes life difficult)
    * to have less pleasure because your man comes without the usual male genetalia (sexuality, pleasure and reproduction impact)
    * to be the private guest of a second teenagehood drama (hairs growing, dick clit size, acnea)
    * to be trapped in a political activism whose mantra is "transphobia" that will have impact on your couple life because everytime you may express your concerns to your transpartner and friends, you will be named "transphobic". So in the name of transphobia, be prepared to say yes to the (trans) commander in chief and to shut your mouth...(what? what? it is misoginy ? yes but trans-misoginy so you MUST accept it ;o)
    Comment in 2 parts 1/2

    ReplyDelete
  12. Comment in 2 parts (part 2 / 2) The Truth about straight women and Transmen (FTM)

    * the lack of focus and care and understanding of your own needs as a woman because most of the time you will be second or 10th priority on the "to do list" (just after updating his FB page or uploading a video on his youtube channel)
    * the unmalehood of the transmale...As a straight woman, you think you will date just a guy without genetalia but it is more complex as more often you will date a narcissistic pervert (whose dysphoria will grow as much he is doing surgeries or body change and so the drama will never end). So you will not date a male in fact but the little queen (the curly hair girl who is trapped inside those transmale)...Note that most transmale those days due to the transmania & fashion frenzy ("trans is the new black" as may say Karl L) do their transition without even knowing what malehood means...
    *you will get more risks to get STD or HIV as more transmale are sexually "queer" or " bisexual" and so you will be, sometimes without knowing it, exposed to HIV prevalence of the gay male community and to not so funny STD...

    ReplyDelete
  13. Taken from Youtube (see there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31I91E3iEss), on the topic, "will a lesbian date a FTM ?".
    The confused answers are:
    *"How can one say that a lesbian is not truly a lesbian because she dates a FTM?"
    *"no matter what someone is ftm lesbian gay , or bi it doesn't change anything because as ftm's we date lesbian women because some can understand that it is a struggle for straight to date ftm because they are not like bio male's"

    Listen, am I the only NOT to understand the brain logic of those people ?

    * FTM = male
    * women who date male are bi or straight
    So it means women who date FTM are attracted by male so either bi or straight.

    So if they were previously in lesbian relationships, it means, by dating FTM, they are now bisexual...
    If the FTM used to be their lesbian girlfriend and the lesbian stayied after the transition, it means the previous lesbian partner of the FTM has accepted now to be a bisexual woman...With the FTM transition, there is also a sexual orientation change of the lesbian partner.

    I don't understand why FTM are putting so much pressure to say that their potential lesbian girlfriend will remain lesbian when dating them...it is wrong.
    Do they fear to have the truth told ie that they convert lesbians into bisexual women ?
    And so do they fear to have their only reservoir of potential partners dying ?
    (cf the comment about straight women who don't want to date FTM compared to bio-male)

    If you chose to go for a transition that make you partial/hybrid/half male,
    *why should the lesbian community be accountable for that ?
    *Why should we provide partners to the FTM community ?

    Why you FTM, don't you, instead, go in straight bars to cruise like a grown-up male and let our women in peace ?

    ReplyDelete
  14. The truth about FTM and gay men...

    Some FTM defines themselves as gay but are not happy at it (cf this testimonial : http://www.okcupid.com/profile/Chiendelespace/journal) or they really need to "promote", to "hard sell" themselves to be considered as fucking partners and have a sex life where a young transguy is forced to be polyamory to get gay partners (see those 2 pathetics video in 2 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbKSmt7tw2I and http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DSSd5FpdSNS4)

    ReplyDelete
  15. To the last Anon,

    Regarding the youtubes you supplied, not only does she go out of her way to emphasize how alike her body is to that of a mans(which is clearly isnt), she hasnt a chance in hell of "passing".

    The fact is gay men, like most men will put their dick in just about any warm hole. It isnt any credit to any authenticity of the trans(man)'s "maleness", which so many seek and believe from gay men. Were that the case the myriad of faghags that regularly get porked by gay men would be equally "male".

    Sad.

    dirt

    ReplyDelete
  16. The article is almost perfect and shows what true lesbianism is. Transmen, no matter what they say, are in reality traitors of womankind and have nothing to do with women loving women. Lesbianism is not only about being attracted to women but also being proud to be a woman. And as far as transmen are concerned, in a feminist court, they deserve double the punishment than a sexist man for the treason of womankind. Masculinity is a disease and all lesbians must hate it, no matter what form its in.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "FTM can really be a vector for transmission of HIV and STD within the lesbian community hence increasing the HIV prevalence risk in the lesbian community..."

    Now you dykes are starting to sound like the str8 homophobes! And all lesbians own stock in u- haul, and all have slept with most (if not all) their friends too, right? Idiots. Don't worry - you bulldaggers are safe, I wouldn't sleep with one of you if paid to! I prefer women who are secure in who they are.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Well, the article was interesting in itself, as it started a huge discussion on something that I, as a "lipstick lesbian", don't usually have the chance to discuss with others.
    While I have only known women who dated male to female (straight women), I have known of female to males who were a friend-of-a-friend. I would never date a FtoM because I have this weird obsession with breasts and vaginas lol. But I also cannot wrap my head around the fact that someone had a womans body, but wanted to get rid of it. And this kind of...seperation of the mind from the body isn't something that is only found among FtoM's. I've dated andro and butch women who seemed very uncomfortable with their bodies, especially if I touched them in ways that made them feel feminine. Then again, those could have been isolated incidences with very insecure women.
    The only part of the article that made me wince a little was the fact that "lipstick lesbians" seem to have a stigma. I'm begining to understand now why it's so hard for me to date lol. I've dated lesbians across the spectrum, and to be honest I've only had short term relations with other feminine types, just sex and shopping. I have no specific preference, but I look for lesbians who seem grounded and staid. And grounded and staid (IMO) tends to be found in lesbians 35+, and further away from the lipstick/femme side.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Maybe i dont have any business on this page; im not a lesbian or a transgendered person i am just a woman. Its my opinion that lesbians should not date ftm's because they are lesbian and are sexually and emotionally attracted to women and ftm's identify themselves as men so i think the ftm would most likely be the one feeling uncomfortable with the relationship if they dont thats their business.Thats just my opinion they may have female body parts but they are emotionally male.

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  20. Butches are some of the most kick ass couragous human beings on the planet.

    Eyes that dont avert.

    Hands that have skill.

    Spirits that eject fear like a its foriegn object.

    Authentic as fuck.

    ReplyDelete

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