Change Your World-NOT your Body

Sunday, February 7, 2010

Online Butch-Femme sites Cesspools for Women Hatred

I recently had several young Femmes email me asking about the accuracy of the butch/femme.coms/nets/orgs/planets/UKs etc. What was largely taking place there in the form of trans females, female fetishizers, "male ID butches", "stone butch/queerfemme" all felt wrong causing them to wonder were they in fact even Femme! I've responded to these smart young Femmes (good for you for following your guts) insuring them that yes they are Femme and no those sites are not true representations of Butch/Femme. Given the dangers and misinformation that's perpetuated in these spaces, I feel it important to post something summing up what these "BF" sites are truly about.

These sites are filled with more or less the same people, some of which recycle themselves from site to site usually after getting "banned". I'll give you a reasonable breakdown and description of each group that is currently occupying these purported Butch/Femme spaces in no particular order.

Female Fetishizers: There are a few handfuls of these men on all BF sites, who through their male privileged birthright believe its perfectly acceptable to co-opt Femme identity. A few will co-opt Butch identity in hopes of "bagging a Femme". Needless to say these types, while their money is accepted at these sites, all remain tolerated/single. Even the trans females there will not date them.

Trans Females aka ftMisogynist: The number of trans females co-opting BF spaces has drastically grown since their presence has become accepted on these sites, especially since a good percentage of the women there will transition. A handful of these women were Butches, but the majority were tweener dykes co-opting Butch identity. As a group, after transition these women utilize their new found "male" privilege to remain in lesbian spaces so they can reach some imaginary hierarchy over the Butch women they so envied, believing they can both "out butch" Butches through drugs and cosmetic mutilation (and male pattern baldness) and have a greater chance at dating the single Femmes there. Sadly due the complete adoption/nazi promotion of "queer theory" on these sites, these women have grown in numbers on Butch/Femme sites. Trans females usually remain single unless temporarily partnering with the "stone femme" types there, no true Femme will obviously date them. They are too self hating and outwardly hating of female/ness. They remain in womens spaces while claiming "male identity" because lesbians are the only group (through intimidation) to tolerate their presence, most are much too afraid to actually "live" as real men.

Tweener: This was one the largest group on BF sites. They are your garden variety soft-ball dykes who believe that disliking hyper femininity makes them Butch. They are the largest number of lesbians who fall prey to transition/queer femmes.

Stone Butch: The large number of women using the "stone butch" label are from the tweener dyke group. A small portion are Butch women. In the current atmosphere of male-centric queer theoried BF spaces, "stone butch" is interestingly one of the few historical BF terms used and given validation. The use of this term (and it is a term, NOT an identity) illustrates perfectly the backwardness BF spaces hold. If unsure of the meaning "stone butch" is a female who develops sexual dysfunction through the pathological shame she feels about her female body. This usually take the form in limited/to no physical touching/intimacy from/with another woman. Rather than call this the sexual dysfunction that it is and provide a safe space for women with body shame issues to grow and overcome their issues, these woman hating sites ignore the pain this group suffers and plays make believe instead by perpetuating these women's shame and suffering with the continued use of "stone butch" as "identity". To be clear and fair most Butch women suffer similar feelings around their breast and vags specifically, sometimes hips/thighs also. Many Butches, especially younger Butches will partake to some extent in "stone" practices, but usually with maturity and good Femme lovers overcome sexual shame to lead happy/healthy/intimate lives.

Stone Femme: The women who ID as "stone femme" are a smattering of sexually/emotionally abused straight women, straight women tired of being under the thumbs of men, tired of males period, for a spell-they ALWAYS go back to men. These women will usually couple with the insecure "stone butch" type. Queer femmes encourage the "stone butches" they partner with to transition, making it easier for them to date a woman. Queer femmes HATE lesbians. These women do not reciprocate sexually with their partners since they arent lesbians, which promotes the sexual dysfunction of their "stone butch" or trans female partners. These relationships are usually short termed and those few that last more than a few years are a course in hetero role playing, lacking authenticity and intimacy.

The remaining membership on these sites are your true Femmes and Butches, who because of their small numbers are silent and if/when they do dare voice their presence they are all to quickly attacked and or banned.

In short, it is no exaggeration when I say all Butch/Femme internet sites/forums are cesspools for misogyny/dysfunction and lezbophobia. Even when it has become impossible to hide the misogyny and dysfunction, such as domestic violence and even the murder of members by females who have transitioned, the victims are dismissed and the trans females or male ID'd members are protected/coddled. These sites are the equivalent of pro ana sites in how dangerous they are, especially to young Femmes and Butches looking for community. What they find instead is a warped sick version of compulsory heterosexuality. This is why it has become life or death for the true Femmes and Butches out there to stand up and be visible, our young people are counting on you/us in these dire straights!



  1. Thanks Dirt! You are absolutely right - I have found that out through hard experience.

    I have found these "Butch/Femme" spaces to the most closed to actual Butches and Femmes. They have been taken over by trans people.

    So, I tried joining other "Butch/Femme" discussion groups, like in Facebook, but every time I want to talk about Butch/Femme history or other topics, there are no replies. But there are tons for trans-related or "just saying hi!" ones. It's very frustrating. I think that's why I like your blog so much, it encourages deep thought and discussion, not just fluff.

    I recommend every young Butch and Femme read about our history. The more I do, the more I realize how much trans-appropriation and gender theory is hurting us women.

    Like Dirt says, let's take back our Butch and Femme identities and reclaim our spaces. I would love to hear some feedback and ideas on how to do it and have an impact.

  2. Right on the mark, Dirt - as usual. Been there, done that. In fact, it was sites like that (and the local groups just like them) that almost convinced me to trannify in order to "heal" and become my "true" self. The only thing that saved me in the end was finally realizing how screwed up these folks are - so why was I listening to them for butch wisdom??? I was like an abused child being told the way to becoming happy and healthy was to become a meth addict -- "and look at how great all us meth addicts are! When you are mature and healthy you'll be like us!" Barf.

    I don't mean any of that in a mean-spirited way. Some of the people on those sites are pathological. But most there were just as or more unhealthy as I was, emotionally and physically. I was just lucky enough to start seeing and being revolted by that, so that I backed out of it before I did anything to myself. I'm glad that more and more butches and femmes are starting to see that now, as well.

    And your site is a great help for that, Dirt! I wish I'd found it or another like it (meaning bold with the truth) 5 years ago, and I would have seen the truth of it much earlier, and with a lot less confusion and struggle.

  3. Please, where would one go to learn more about butch femme herstory?
    thanks :)

  4. Dirt --

    I was reading this in the mall on my phone, instead of shopping! I'm so, so glad to have found your site and the information you've passed on, because those sites were so bothersome to me, so disturbing and I was really starting to think that true butch-femme is gone -- women loving women, not a woman / genderqueer loving FtM / male IDd / genderqueer.

    I feel much more that my balance or direction has been re-righted since I read your site and talked to you. Thank you!

  5. So, where do real butch lesbians go to socialize and learn online? Except for a few blogs here and there, I've found nothing that's truly safe for real butches and femmes. Are there forums somewhere or something? They'd have to be moderated, of course, to keep them from being overtaken again. Is there somewhere to set up a forum that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? If so, if no one else has the time to set it up I will, if there is actually interest in a safe, private online place for chit chat, learning, mentoring, and so on.

  6. Nat,

    I'm working on another blog strictly for femme/butch issues/discussion. It will be private so folks will have to register in order to comment. But they can be assured their comments/feelings will remain behind closed doors. I hope to really delve into the issues that affect us as femmes and butch such as shame/invisibility/sexuality etc.

    Will post a link on here when I have it set up. I will also move all my posts here dealing with femme/butch there.


  7. At last someone is trying to tell it like it is without fear of being shouted down. I'm a proud Femme Dyke and I love Butch women. I’m so sick of being told that my desire for lesbian sex with a Butch is “disgusting” and that because of this desire/need/longing I’m “not a real Femme”. Being told by Stone Femmes that sex with an FTM is “not like being with a man” is total BS. I’m a Femme Dyke and I desire lesbian sex with Butch Dyke women NOT FTMs or gender queers.

    Lucky for me I've managed to find lots of Butch women hiding in the general lesbian community.

    Butch/Femme online and social communities HAVE been over taken by all things gender queer so if we want to find our own space then yes, let’s create one.

    Thanks million Dirt.

  8. Glad to see that there are few REAL Femme out there FA. We REAL Butch women are just as fed up with the bullshit of all those "queers" who have co-opted our Femmme/Butch identities its nearly become impossible to find a REAL Femme so much so that many of us Butches have nearly given up trying.


  9. After years of struggling to thoroughly understand why the B-f sites felt so squicky, I finally got it.

    There is a huge tendency to make dykes/ lesbians feel like second class citizens. The original meaning of butch-femme and the dynamic has been appropriated by the bogus "all inclusiveness" of the sites.

    I am a dyke who is butch. I love my femme wife. I am looking more concertedly toward spaces that appreciate and respect that "butch-femme" IS about lesbians/ dykes by its very name.

    I hate that there are so few resources available for just "us" to participate in without feeling we have to abandon our "dykeness" and assimilate into the ever encompassing "queer" catch all.

    Thanks for just being here folks!

  10. I love this post. I am abutch lesbian and I am finding it hard to find a place where I belong. Even harder a femme who wants and seeks a butch woman.
    I am tired of the "Hollywood" version of butch, or being told I am not butch because I don't have a crew cut or want to be a guy. I am happy the way I am, I am not happy when I walk into "lesbian bars" and get looked at like I have bizarre growth out of my head. Or my favorite, a straight girl who wants to be a pillow princess...all butches don't want to be touched..Right?
    I miss the fierce femmes, fully function females who want a butch in any way they want to have them.
    Here where I am in Socal, its become a joke to find my place or a real femme who wants a real butch.
    But I know they are out there...

  11. kbryant,

    This is why it is so important that true Femmes and Butches let their/our voices be heard of the din of "queer" fake femmes/butches occupying our spaces.

    Butch is about being/doing woman a certain way, but that way doesnt exclude us from being women and it certainly doesnt make us men!

    Thank you for you comment!



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